The only major ww2 Power that has no bomber in AH is Russia.

[JAWS2003]

Originally posted by Bronk
Please point me to a read of Russia's strat bombing campaign.
Being serious here.

Bronk

The point is thatthey were used on large enough scale to deserve the addition of one of them in the game.

[Krusty]

Jaws, how many Yaks were made?

How many LAs?

How many IL2s?

Out of the ENTIRE Soviet airforce (both lend-lease AND home-built), how many airframes served in WW2, for the Soviet Union?

And, what percent of that many hundreds of thousands is made up by 11,000 Pe-2s?

While the Pe-2 is quite iconic, and yes the VVS planelist has holes in it, it doesn't compare with your changing the focus to the G.55, which made up almost 10% of the IT air force.

That diversion aside, I like the Pe-2, but get your arguments down before tossing them out.


1) The Soviets lost more people in the war, they deserve more planes

- no... They lost more people because they posessed leaders with no scruples, morals, or convictions, and sent unarmed farmers into the machine guns of the Germans.

2) the allies already have 6 bombers

- the allies focused MAINLY on bombing campaigns. The fighters were only there to protect the bombers or attack the bombers. The Soviets had bomber designs and chose NOT to pursue them, because it wasn't important to them.

3) 11000 Pe-2s were made! It must be included!

- sure, 11000 out of how many total? The Soviets built up a disposable society during that war. LA7s were meant to last no longer than 6 months before falling apart. Lend-lease P-39s and P-40s had their engines run so high that they had to be changed out ever 2 sorties or so. Where there were about 30,000(?) IL2s made, and even more yaks, lavochkins, and where almost 10,000 P-39s of various types were shipped there, not counting other types... 11,000 is a drop in the bucket.

So, yes, we could very much use the Pe-2, but not for the reasons you've listed. Sorry.

[JAWS2003]

Originally posted by Krusty
Pe2 and Tu2 were not accomplished level bombers. Both were dive bombers. Hence the light bombloads. I'm sure they *could* level bomb, but did they even have bombsights? Pe-2, as far as I can remember, didn't have one. It had a nice glass nose so the pilot could aim better as he was diving. There was a crew of 2 and later 3, none of which included a bombadier.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by JAWS2003
Enough to deserve one Twin engine bomber in a game that already has six allied bombers from the west.

Your answer to my question.
A very pointed question I might add.

Then I ask for a read of it.

I asked nothing about numbers produced. My question was how they were used.

Because

They did the most damage to the germans in ww2

Is suspect, I'd say Britt and U.S. strat bombing campaign did far more damage to Germany.  In material, moral, and probably lives.
How many lives lost in Dresden alone?

So please how about that read on Russia's strat campaign.


Bronk

[Kweassa]

So, yes, we could very much use the Pe-2, but not for the reasons you've listed. Sorry.

 Who the *** cares?


...as if smudging other people's request threads would actually up your chances for a G.55.

 I won't be surprised if people who got tired of you showing up in every single lobby thread to tell people why the plane they like is an inferior choice, would ignore the G.55 completely just to see you get miffed.

 So please, go pom-pom for your plane in your favorite plane thread.

[Krusty]

Jaws, we all know that IL2 is the epitome of accuracy, right?


Right?

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Kweassa
...as if smudging other people's request threads would actually up your chances for a G.55.

 I won't be surprised if people who got tired of you showing up in every single lobby thread to tell people why the plane they like is an inferior choice, would just ignore the G.55 completely just to see you get miffed.

 So please, go pom-pom for your plane in your favorite plane thread.

Kweassa, go start a fight elsewhere. I am not "smudging up" other threads. Ye of short memory, I've requested the Pe-2 for years. If we get it I'll be pleased as pie. I'm voting for something else though. Jaws is the one that brought up the G.55 with his diversion tactic.

Like I said, quite clearly, quite plainly, "So, yes, we could very much use the Pe-2, but not for the reasons you've listed. Sorry."

We *DO* need the Pe-2, but not for the trumped-up reasons Jaws presented.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by JAWS2003
The point is thatthey were used on large enough scale to deserve the addition of one of them in the game.

I agree, I would have no qualms if were added. Because It was widely produced and used.

I'm just on about the how.


Bronk

[quintv]

By Germany I doubt he means the physical geography itself, but the German war effort.

And since 70-85% of all German Heer and Luftwaffe casualties (respectively the lowest and highest estimates I've seen) occurred on the Eastern front, it can be argued that the VVS's tactical bombing had more real impact on the war than the strat campaign. Its a debatable point at best since you could also say that the Luftwaffe would have been able to put more of its forces securing the air in the East if it wasn't defending against the 8th Air Force and Bomber command, etc.

The Tu/Su/Pes were tac bombers. They Soviets built a few "heavy" bombers but the Soviets rightly deemed strat bombing to be a less efficient use of their hardware and material, especially with the US and UK doing so much of it already.

[VWE]

All the AH needs is another "too little and too late" late war furballer.

Ooooo... that's almost sig material there...

[Kweassa]

Is suspect, I'd say Britt and U.S. strat bombing campaign did far more damage to Germany. In material, moral, and probably lives.
How many lives lost in Dresden alone?

 Stalingrad or Leningrad would make Dresden look like a picnic. The entire US bombing campaign from 1943 to the end of war combined, couldn't match a single USSR-vs-Germany campaign in terms of the sheer amount of destruction, Bronk. Military losses alone, not counting civilian casualties, amount up to 5 million KIA/MIA for Axis forces(Germans and their co-belligerants), and 10 million for the Soviets.

 I wouldn't want to belittle the achievements of the Western Allies in their collective effort to put an end to the Third Reich, but honestly, THE largest front of WW2 was the Eastern Front, and its there where the outcome of the war was decided.

 There's just no changing that fact.

[VWE]

Like I said, quite clearly, quite plainly, "So, yes, we could very much use the G.55, but not for the reasons you've listed. Sorry."

Lets just put this little disclaimer on all of your posts Krusty, too little too late  

[Bronk]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Stalingrad or Leningrad would make Dresden look like a picnic. The entire US bombing campaign from 1943 to the end of war combined, couldn't match a single USSR-vs-Germany campaign in terms of the sheer amount of destruction, Bronk.
 

Yea firestorm that creates 100 mph+ winds are a picnic.
Could you downplay that just a bit more.
Tell that to the low estimated 250k dead "picnic".
Oh and thats just 1 city on the receiving end of a "picnic".


Picnic pffft.

Bronk

[Krusty]

Hrm... we tell you to stop spamming the G.55 thread, so you go spam other threads?


Tsk tsk

[quintv]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Stalingrad or Leningrad would make Dresden look like a picnic. The entire US bombing campaign from 1943 to the end of war combined, couldn't match a single USSR-vs-Germany campaign in terms of the sheer amount of destruction, Bronk.

 I wouldn't want to belittle the achievements of the Western Allies in their collective effort to put an end to the Third Reich, but honestly, THE largest front of WW2 was the Eastern Front, and its there where the outcome of the war was decided.

 There's just no changing that fact.

Good luck trying to get past the idea ingrained in the minds of all Americans from youth that the U.S.A won the war almost single-handedly like John Wayne riding into town with a couple six shooters, saving the frightened and defenseless women of Europe (U.K/U.S.S.R) from the evil hun.  You tell someone that the vast majority of German military casualties were sustained on the Ostfront  and most of the time you'll run into "but... but.. but...". Europeans know better, and of course the more well informed and read Americans do, but Joe Q Public thinks Patton won teh war.