Author Topic: thach weave  (Read 1543 times)

Offline Movie

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thach weave
« on: April 01, 2007, 04:41:12 PM »
Has anyone used the thach weave and found it effective?

Offline killnu

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thach weave
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2007, 05:38:44 PM »
yes
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Offline Movie

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thach weave
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2007, 06:02:58 PM »
omg can u give more detailed explanation

Offline Ack-Ack

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thach weave
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2007, 06:12:14 PM »


It was executed either by two fighter aircraft in formation side by side or (as illustrated) by two pairs of fighters flying together. When an enemy aircraft chose one of the two fighters as his target (the "bait" fighter) the two wingmen turned in towards each other and crossed each other's path. After the fighters had separated in opposite directions in this manner, they would then commence a turn back towards each other, thus bringing the enemy fighter into the gunsights of the other fighter - the "hook" fighter. If the maneuver was executed correctly, the enemy fighter had little chance of escape if he had followed the "bait" fighter through its turn.

Try to keep the distance between you and your wingman no more than 200 yards when doing it, otherwise the bogie might just get enough time to bagged the "bait" and bug out or reverse on  you.

It's interesting to note that the USAAF in the SWP didn't adopt this tactic.

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Offline Movie

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thach weave
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2007, 06:28:44 PM »
true only the navy and the marine corps adopted it

Offline Ack-Ack

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thach weave
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2007, 07:34:28 PM »
RAF adopted it too, at least some units did.  So did some USAAF units but on general the USAAF in the SWP didn't feel it was necessary due to the planes they flew, which allowed them to use difference tactics instead of the Thatch Weave.


ack-ack
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Offline killnu

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thach weave
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2007, 08:08:12 PM »
you asked if anyone has used it successfully...I answered yes.

Ask for an explanation next time :aok


good diagram of it.:aok
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Offline Kermit de frog

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thach weave
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2007, 03:31:45 AM »
Diagram looks like a ho shot at the end.
The bait should do what he does in the diagram, but the wingman should not be at same alt as bait, try to go up alittle that way he can come slightly down and shoot the bad guy on his six.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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thach weave
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2007, 04:13:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kermit de frog
Diagram looks like a ho shot at the end.
The bait should do what he does in the diagram, but the wingman should not be at same alt as bait, try to go up alittle that way he can come slightly down and shoot the bad guy on his six.


Yes, to do the Thach weave, the "Bait" and the wingman have to be at the same alt, otherwise it defeats the purpose of the maneuver.


ack-ack
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Offline B@tfinkV

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thach weave
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2007, 10:57:24 AM »
most effective thatch weave varient i've used in the main arenas is a vertical one. all of my squad mates have this manouver down to a fine art for a formation 'fighting retreat'.

lead makes the diving attack and wingman waits above. lead makes a kill and climbs, wingman dives in to intantly take the ropes off of lead. lead loops over to take ropes off of wingman, repeat till you get home.

If anyone is interested i have a recent decent example from furball and me winging in chogs, i could post it if you want.

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Offline hammer

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thach weave
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2007, 11:30:19 AM »
Another key (and risk) to the Thatch Weave is that the defender should not execute a max rate turn so his wingman can get inside the attacker's turn for a deflection shot instead of ending up in a HO situation with both his wingman and the attacker. You can see this in the diagram AckAck provided.

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Offline SlapShot

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thach weave
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2007, 11:35:06 AM »
Somebody watched "Dogfights" ?

Last weeks showing, "The Zero Killer", showed 2 F6-Fs doing the Thatch Weave ... was sweet to watch.
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Offline Mace2004

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thach weave
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2007, 12:05:11 PM »
Something to remember but the Thatch weave is a defensive maneuver.  Also, consider that ACM training during WWII was a mixed bag usually left up to the squadrons and therefore, you were very likely to have a very inexperienced wingman.  The weave is a simple tactic requiring only basic knowledge and is suitable for any wingman to perform.  It's basic function is to get both fighters out of phase with each other, i.e., they're turning different directions which allows the free fighter to obtain a shooting position.  Also, the US planes had less maneuverability than their opponents, this maneuver counts on the Japanese belief that once on someone's six the situation was almost impossible to reverse so the tactic is designed to provide shot opportunities for the free fighter, particularly when the bandit is boresighted on the other fighter.  

Some things to think about:

First, it's never a good idea to intentionally put yourself on the defensive.  That being the case, an initial cross turn is usually the best response to a bandit closing on the section's six, so the first step is pretty much automatic regardless of the bandit's distance.  If sufficient distance exists (probably outside of 2k) between the fighters and the bandit, a full 180 cross turn (one fighter goes high and the other low) will get both fighters facing the bandit and neutralize his position advantage.  When the bandit chooses the fighter he's going to attack that fighter becomes the "engaged" fighter and the second is "free".  The free fighter's job is to position himself for a shot (while watching for the bandit's wingman) while the engaged fighter's role is to make the bandit predictable either by "pushing" or "dragging" him toward the free fighter.

If insufficent distance exists to complete a 180 cross turn (inside of 2k) this is where the weave comes in.  The fighters still turn into each other but then reverse their turns to begin the weave.   The engaged fighter is "defensive" and the free fighter needs to go on offense.  Assuming the bandit isn't actually pumping out rounds, the free fighter's job stays the same and he needs to quickly get to a good shooting position.  He has a few options.  If the separation is great or the bandit has lots of e the free fighter can do a low yo-yo to cross the circle, gain speed and close the distance.  If separation is relatively small, the free fighter should assess the angles, and can do a high yo-yo or lag roll to put himself on the bandit's six.  If he's presented with a lot of angles and a potential forward quarter shot opportunity he needs to assess the threat to the engaged fighter.  If the engaged fighter is still outside of the bandit's gun range then the free fighter should choose a positioning maneuver such as a high yo-yo to put himself on the bandit's six.  If the engaged fighter is very defensive and in danger of being bagged in the next few seconds than the free fighter should go for the forward quarter snapshot (yeah, yeah, yeah....maybe even a HO).  The problem with going to the snapshot is that the free fighter is giving away angles for a low percentage shot and, should he miss, it'll take more time to get on the bandit's six than if he just went for the positioning maneuver first.

Going back to the initial setup, if a bandit is spotted very close and is already in a shooting position on one of the fighter's six then both fighters should break turn toward each other.  Even a forward quarter snapshot by the free fighter will usually work to at least distract the bandit.  Following the snapshot both fighters should reverse their turns and give the free fighter another opportunity for a shot.  This would be a very tight, high-g weave.

A couple of other notes, the weave does work in the vertical and also in the oblique, it doesn't have to be flat.  Also, both fighters should never be co-alt at the start (but still within 2-3k).  Different altitudes complicates the bandit's problem since the fighters are both out of phase and out of plane.
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Offline Badboy

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thach weave
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2007, 03:42:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
most effective thatch weave varient i've used in the main arenas is a vertical one. all of my squad mates have this manouver down to a fine art for a formation 'fighting retreat'.


I experienced this during the last Battle of Britain scenario. I was chasing a pair of Me110's during their dash to the coast and they used this tactic. Nobody got a kill from it, but the 110's were able to keep me from getting into position for a shot while maintaining their high speed egress. It was the first time I've seen it used that way, and it was very effective. I was impressed.

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Offline Movie

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thach weave
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2007, 04:17:10 PM »
remember that coral sea scenerio back in '05 it was fun