Author Topic: ok, bomber sis.. er, guys. I gotta ask..  (Read 5503 times)

Offline AKDejaVu

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ok, bomber sis.. er, guys. I gotta ask..
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2001, 12:43:00 PM »
Quote
Ok.. so everyone hits the VH first. I guess I am not seeing what i am seeing.

Ummm.. common mistake: 5 people posting here represents "everyone" flying buffs in the arena.

AKDejaVu

Offline Pepe

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« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2001, 02:31:00 AM »
No way we can have dedicated buff squads with the lousy buff bomb model. There can be no interest in anybody roughly interested in buff flying for what we have here. I am talking both about the lack of bomb blast, the 35k+ pinpoint accuracy, the Norden implementation, the lack of damage to crew on long stratospheric flights, the ack firing through fuselage and wings.... A dedicated buff squad would like realistic approach to buff formations, and realistic modelling of bomb damage. I think AH lacks severely in both sides.

Buff driving is boring as it can be. No skill required whatsoever. You can take off even running cross-country   :D

Anyway, Buff modelling is a looooooong standing issue, and no steps has been taken into solving what I perceive to be a problem, and no notice has been given so far. So I assume that, from Htc.'s point of view, this is a "feature", not a problem.

I've learnt to live with it. I have no hopes this will be fixed in the near future, or at all. Pity that, as much as I liked buffing on WB, I can't find any fun here doing that. I'm out of buff flying in AH.

Lucky thing is we have a lot of other interesting things to do.  :)

Cheers,

Pepe

Offline lazs1

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« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2001, 08:36:00 AM »
I tend to think of buffs as being very anoying and badly done AI.  
lazs

Offline Nifty

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« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2001, 12:16:00 PM »
*shrugs*  when we (mongrels) attack a base with the intent of capturing it, we always assign someone to the VH.

Personally, I prefer strikes that limit the capabilities of the enemy.  Last night, we took out the barracks at 43 and 2, to make the goons have a farther run to take over our bases.  If anything, a furballer would enjoy that as it prolongs the massive struggle over the base.   ;)
proud member of the 332nd Flying Mongrels, noses in the wind since 1997.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2001, 01:56:00 PM »
On Behalf of all the frustrated, dedicated buff pilots, I come forth and say this:

 Listen to LePaul a bit, he's got a point.

 Ok. Lot of Buff pilots are in fact newbies. The vague romantic air flirting around the 'legend of Memphisbelle' is as almost as big as the typical ignorant fetish towards the 'legend of the Luftwaffe and the 109s' for a newbie(don't you deny this one! We've all been there!  :) ) AH flight model is so hard for most every newbie that when they take their first step towards flight, they usually experiment out with the buffs, sit and look around in the turrets. I know that because I started off just the same.

 Quite natural. Newbies just don't know their priorities(hey, is there a "Buff trainer" out there? I THINK NOT). Neither did I. But they'll learn. Whether you drive them up the wall like a drill sarge booting private arse, or you EXPLAIN THINGS NICELY, hey, they learn.

 But there are other times. Where's that inkling of a thing called 'escorts'? Look around from the birds eye view and everyone else is busy hunting for their own kills. Many times one would suggest few people to stay up high CAP and stop reinforcements from entering from nearby fields and you get this terrific silence. Boy do I miss a "CC" when it's like that.   :mad:

 Somehow, the operation that began smoothly goes nuts. People are busy vulching, the goon gets left alone and killed by a N1K from another field that dives from 20K, the VHs knocked out prior to first attack is respawn by the time 2~3 goons come by and miserably get shot out of the sky.. Enemy dots begin popping from all over including large numbers of reinforcements from nearby fields, and by then people ask for buffs to down FHs so they can gain air superiority. What are buff pilots supposed to do?  :(

 The reasonable solution is to realize the tactical failure of the attack and plan an attack elsewhere. But then again, people stay around the field by this time which there's absolutely no possibility of capturing and do meaningless vulches for another half an hour, while reinforced enemy airpower at 18k begins dropping any more buffs approaching to kill VHs and other stuff.  :mad:

 We buff pilots get sick of dying unprotected, so we announce that we should target other fields. Nobody listens. So we announce an attack at a field that has low enemy profile(and good tactical value). Kill the VHs first as prescribed, even take out good FHs. And broadcast out like Larry King that we have a new good target. Of course by the time anybody actually listens to this and begins upping de-ack jabos, the VHs are back up. By the time we get home and land all the advantage is at a loss.

 Cut us some slack. Try and establish some nice air sweeps up high and believe me, we will down any hangar in any order, any time.

 The only way we could achieve these nice coordinated attacks so far was through mission settings. Most other case of field capture was usually brute force. Come join that BORING mission which fighters have not much to do but keep a look out for many many many minutes. And once more, we'll drop any hangar in any sequence at given time.

 But I forget. You guys don't join 'Not so fun missions which fighters do nothing but fly around for 20 minutes'.

 Every second of those boring 20 minutes is a struggle for buff pilots. So next time, let's all be nice and somtimes LISTEN to what the buff pilots want. It's not because we're all morons we can't drop correct hangars things nicely.

ps) I always drop VHs first.

Offline Weave

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« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2001, 02:59:00 PM »
What slays me is the guys that waste their ord on GVs while the VH is still up. Yea ya get a kill, but ya ain't accomplishing anthing but paddin your score.  :confused:

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2001, 04:24:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Lazs.. your frustration pales in comparison to those trying to capture a base.

There is nothing better than hearing "fighter hangars down at 47"... meaning two of the 3.  Just as 5 ostwinds start to spawn.  The next buff over takes out two of the bomber hangars.  I saw this about 10 times in the last 2 days.

It all boils down to a bunch of newbies playing the game.  The names I saw flying the buffs were all rookies.  They just hit the big black buildings first.  The camo vh is just too hard to see.

The furball guys aren't the only ones that wish this would change.

Now... on another note... if you are going to capture a base, it is much safer to take out the FH nearest to the base you are taking (in conjunction with the base you are taking) than it is even to take out the FH at the base you are taking.  Its much easier to vul... er... cap the field you are capturing than to deal with incoming fighters at 12k.

AKDejaVu

I know who your flying with.

Offline Hangtime

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ok, bomber sis.. er, guys. I gotta ask..
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2001, 04:31:00 PM »
ROFL Pongo!! Good one!

Kweassa... Right on target. Nice post. <S!>
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline mrfish

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ok, bomber sis.. er, guys. I gotta ask..
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2001, 04:38:00 PM »
"I am amused by your frustration. From now on just fighter and bomber hangars for me. "
- fatty

"fatty... if you want to fly buffs just to frustrate me then i am flattered and amused. Your boredom will keep me amused. I will send you two pictures of myself. One, a large one suitable for framing and placing on your monitor so that you can think of me while you are playing and one smaller wallet size so that you can think about me while you are not playing AH."

- lasz

OMG that's the funniest exchange i've heard in ages. i haven't bombed anything in weeks but i am going to go take out a fh at a furball base tonight in fatty's honor. lasz - i'd like a picture of you too so i can picture you looking cranky and colicy when i hear those 1k lber's go......loolololol

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2001, 09:38:00 PM »
Sorry if I offended anyone. Sort of lost it there, but I do think my point was valid.

 I just wanted to point out the lack of 'voluntary support' for the Bombers up in the sky. Since we don't have a CO giving out orders, we need to think by ourselves a bit what is needed where. And most of the times, "PROTECT THE BUFFS" is NOT a priority to people flying fighters. They tend to just think "just come here and bomb this, if you die, oh well, up another lanc".

 I have to say it's not that easy... buffs have low chance of surviving and returning home, and you have to invest a lot of time in it, too. I'm pretty sure nobody wants to commit suicide everytime they up a plane. In order to kill something fast and effectively, we need help.

 Close range escorts are rarely effective(but we do appreciate it). A fighter sweep prior to the bombing run is the best help we can get. But escorts become worthless once they start chasing enemy planes down to the deck. If a buff is to survive and continue out its task, it needs fighters to chase away the high alt fighters low, and return up ti high alt again and keep others from pestering the buffs. If you are trying to help a buff pilot out, just 'chasing a plane away' is always more welcome than 'chasing a plane to the deck to kill it'.

 Once more, sorry if I offended anyone.

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2001, 10:20:00 PM »
And once again.. Nice post. Yah just nailed another one dead on.  :)

I will mourn the next time I shoot yah down.

<S!>
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline texace

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ok, bomber sis.. er, guys. I gotta ask..
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2001, 03:04:00 AM »
It also boils down to at least 3/4 of the entire arena want to do nothing but furball. I have done many a surgical  ;) strike on a port or field, right on the front, near friendly bases, disable the VH and ack, a FH or two, and call for the goon. No one ever comes. Not one person f***ing comes, ever. I have called goons for 1 1/2 hours one night even with the VH up to see if anyone comes. No one does. I like flying bombers, and I like them in groups, but it is very frustrating to either:

A.) Have your escorts chase a single nme fighter (out of 2) to the deck, leaving the last one to ionize me.

B.) Flatten a field (so to speak) and call for goons several times and have no one show.

C.) Destroying the FH at a base people are vulching at, only to be yelled at for removing the vulchees, to which everyone just disappears.

D.) Destroying fuel and ammo to stop the carbombers, only to be yelled at for destroying "things vital to our push onward"

Those who squeak about bombers being worthless or "bad" are usually those who yell at bomber pilots for killing furball fields or removing easy targets for vulchers. I truely will be sad/angry if HTC removes the bombers just so some newbie Quakers can have their little f***ing furball fests.

Offline Pepe

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« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2001, 03:56:00 AM »
Nice post, Kweassa.

Still I think Buffs in AH are some kind of Easy Mode, and I see where this helps newbies. I can also see the frustration of solo Buff flights (I try to provide cover on a regular basis, when I'm not in squad mission). But Buff flying is still a no-fun for me   :(

I would return to Buff flying if Norden sight is more accurately modelled and bomb blast is modelled in a different way than what we have today. I think (I'm no expert) that bomb blast is rather large in reality, much larger that it is here. Even if it was not, and given .50's in buffs beefed up for the sake of gameplay, I see no reason to beef up bombs in buffs added to norden sight and maybe drift on drops, to try to modelled some credible buff patterns. Navigation skills would make the travel to target interesting, and pinpoint accuracy will be replaced by some kind of carpet bombing.

IMHO, buffs should not be concerned about pinpointing targets from 35k's, but about reaching the target with the right lining to inflict maximum damage with a nicely timed salvo in one pass. That's what buffs are for, AFAIK. No jinking, no magic laser designators, no fire and forget. Just a nice drop of big, fat, juicy eggs that would blast anything in (say) 50 ft, damage severely in 100 ft., etc., blow soft targets....

Had some flavour of that last tour, on a mission over Knit City. Just dropped 1k eggs without particular aiming, just in the general area, and the 3xBuilding+1 Gun killed message were pretty rewarding. I tried to stick to some kind of realistic behaviour, setting long legs in and out target. But I really, really do miss those two things when it comes to buffs. Norden sight and Bomb blast. Now these would be a blast   :)

Cheers,

Pepe

Offline ET

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« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2001, 05:55:00 AM »
If you haven't flown a buf for a while,you ought to try it.I think the guns lethality has been turned down and the rate of climb decreased making it much harder to get to target.After what they did with the Panzer and the Ostwind,this is becoming an arcade game for fighters and a long way from a WW2 sim.Escort ? what is an escort ?

Offline lazs1

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« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2001, 08:39:00 AM »
mrfish... I thought that you had been (cough) "restricted" from soliciting photos on the internet?  Granted, I am quite a bit older than the ones you normally solicit but still.....

Here it is bomber folks... the bombers in the game are hashed up messes that really shouldn't be in the game.   The distances are too short and the targets wrong for four or even two engined bombers to be realistic.   the time most people have to play is too short to do anything but curse the bombers.  Bombers and fighters are at best adversarial in the game.  

What no one wants to escort your glorified AI for 20 minutes instead of having fun?   You call for escort and people ignore you???  Sheesh... I have never heard anyone say.. "Need help at __ the furball is winding down" ...   I can't recall a single time that I have been happy to see a bomber in the game.  I make it a point to shoot their chutes and I wish killshooter were not active for buffs.  other than that... they are ok i guess.
lazs