Boroda

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Elfie
Umm....I'm not Finnish.

If the Finns did not want the deal, it was wrong of the USSR to attempt to force the deal upon them. The war that killed thousands was started by the USSR, and only the USSR is to blame for the deaths that ensued.

Wrong!?

Look, I was born in Leningrad.

32km from Finnish border in 1939. And yet they starved 700,000 people to death in 41-44 in my city.

I wish you could talk to people who survived the Blockade.

Every time I come to Leningrad I bring flowers to the memorial plate on the wall: During an artillery bombarding this side of the street is the most dangerous!....

Imagine anything like that at the street in your home town.

[Elfie]

32km from Finnish border in 1939. And yet they starved 700,000 people to death in 41-44 in my city.

From what I can find online, the Finns did not help the German Army at Leningrad.

It was the German Army, not the Finnish Army that inflicted the horror on you, your family, your friends and your fellow citizens.

Boroda, I am truly sorry that you suffered in that way.

[Elfie]

By August, the Finns had reconquered the Karelian Isthmus, threatening Leningrad from the West, and were advancing through Karelia east of Lake Ladoga, threatening Leningrad from the North. In any event, the Finnish forces halted at the 1939 border. The Finnish headquarters rejected German pleas for aerial attacks against Leningrad and did not advance further south from the River Svir in the occupied East Karelia which they reached at September 7, 160 kilometers north-east of Leningrad.

Boroda thats as far as the Finns went. (As near as I can tell). The Finns do not appear to have helped lay siege to Leningrad.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Elfie
From what I can find online, the Finns did not help the German Army at Leningrad.

It was the German Army, not the Finnish Army that inflicted the horror on you, your family, your friends and your fellow citizens.

Boroda, I am truly sorry that you suffered in that way.

Finns secured the north-western part of the circle aroung Leningrad.

Also they invaded Soviet Karelia, including Petrozavodsk, sending all ehnically-alien population (Russians, Ukrainians, Jews, Tatars) to death-camps.

What do you think about cutting ears from dead enemy? They practiced it. They were feared much more then German nazis.

Sorry for saying it, but I simply have to.

My friend's mother was thrown into a death-camp ("migrant camp") when she was 7 years old. So I hope you understand that I take it personally. And as far as I understand - they never admit their war crimes. They say they starved Soviet civilians because they didn't have much food to spare. Go figure.

USSR needed Hanko in late-30s simply to cut off enemy fleet from Finnish gulf and Leningrad. We saw what British Navy could do after the mine-artillery position was broken in 1918. Red Hill/Ino was the next line, but in 1918 Finns forced Imperial troops to blow up Ino, and Red Hill was destroyed by Reds after a rebellion. I spent my childhood in the titanic ruins of Ino... Only now I understand that it was human-made concrete structures...

Unfinished fort Hanko harrison fought for several months in 1941, and then was evacuated by Baltic Fleet ships. Then Baltic Fleet was locked in Kronstadt/Leningrad, and it's acient battleships built in WWI were only providing artillery support to groung troops.

[Boroda]

By August, the Finns had reconquered the Karelian Isthmus, threatening Leningrad from the West, and were advancing through Karelia east of Lake Ladoga, threatening Leningrad from the North. In any event, the Finnish forces halted at the 1939 border. The Finnish headquarters rejected German pleas for aerial attacks against Leningrad and did not advance further south from the River Svir in the occupied East Karelia which they reached at September 7, 160 kilometers north-east of Leningrad.

They stopped at 1939 border simply because they couldn't break an old Soviet defence line, so don't tell me fairy-tales about "Mannerheim's good will".

River Svir. I didn't know they went THAT far. 160km NW from Leningrad - well, please, look at the map.

[Elfie]

My friend's mother was thrown into a death-camp ("migrant camp") when she was 7 years old. So I hope you understand that I take it personally. And as far as I understand - they never admit their war crimes. They say they starved Soviet civilians because they didn't have much food to spare. Go figure.

Besides Germany, which country does admit to their war crimes? No army no matter which country it represented was entirely innocent of war crimes.

USSR needed Hanko in late-30s simply to cut off enemy fleet from Finnish gulf and Leningrad. We saw what British Navy could do after the mine-artillery position was broken in 1918. Red Hill/Ino was the next line, but in 1918 Finns forced Imperial troops to blow up Ino, and Red Hill was destroyed by Reds after a rebellion. I spent my childhood in the titanic ruins of Ino... Only now I understand that it was human-made concrete structures..

Just because the USSR saw a need for Hanko does that give them the right to take it by force of arms when Finland declined to agree to the terms? My answer  to that is no.

Finns secured the north-western part of the circle aroung Leningrad.

I have found another source that collaborates this. I stand corrected on this.

http://www.answers.com/topic/siege-of-leningrad

For 872 days during World War II, German and Finnish armies besieged Leningrad, the Soviet Union's second largest city and important center for armaments production. According to recent estimates, close to two million Soviet citizens died in Leningrad or along nearby military fronts between 1941 and 1944. Of that total, roughly one million civilians perished within the city itself.

Here's an interesting tidbit of information from the same source. It's at the end of the second paragraph.

About 2.5 million people were trapped within the city. The only connection that Leningrad maintained with the rest of the Soviet Union was across Lake Ladoga, which German aircraft patrolled. Finland refused German entreaties to continue its advance southward along Ladoga's eastern coast to link up with German forces.

Question, just how much more horrible would the siege have been had the Finns agreed to do as the Germans had asked? The USSR would not have been able to evacuate people, no supplies would have been able to reach those still in the city via the frozen lake.

[Elfie]

Boroda do you have a link to a map showing which forces where deployed in what areas by all of the participants? Or maybe a map you could scan and post here? I haven't been able to find one yet.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Borodas stories are always so contradicting. He speaks purely from the soviet side of the 'truth' which couldn't be any further off as we all know.

If you guys had no intention to occupy our country, why did you create a shadow government and/or pack a full parade gear with your troops, including banderolls about 'freed finland'?

And death camps.. Gimme a break. You're so brainwashed it's beyond belief. Soviets invented propaganda.

[DiabloTX]

Mr. Ripley I don't even know why you try.  Seriously...it's not like Boroda can untrain himself from the hardline Soviet propaganda machine.  I mean, what's next?  They invaded,errr were invited into Poland because the food was obviously better there?

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Originally posted by Elfie

 

I have found another source that collaborates this. I stand corrected on this.

http://www.answers.com/topic/siege-of-leningrad

Read a bit futher on that same link:

By August, the Finns had reconquered the Karelian Isthmus, threatening Leningrad from the West, and were advancing through Karelia east of Lake Ladoga, threatening Leningrad from the North. In any event, the Finnish forces halted at the 1939 border. The Finnish headquarters rejected German pleas for aerial attacks against Leningrad and did not advance further south from the River Svir in the occupied East Karelia which they reached at September 7, 160 kilometers north-east of Leningrad. In the south, Germans captured Tikhvin on November 8, but failed to advance further north and connect with Finns at the River Svir. A Soviet counterattack forced Germans to retreat from Tikhvin, on December 9, all the way to the River Volkhov.

On September 4, Jodl came to persuade Mannerheim to continue the Finnish offensive and it is said that Mannerheim refused. After the war, the former Finnish president Ryti said: "On August 24, 1941, I visited the headquarters of Marshal Mannerheim. The Germans aimed us at crossing the old border and at continuation of the offensive to Leningrad. I said that the capture of Leningrad wasn't our goal and that we shouldn't take part in it. Mannerheim and the military minister Walden agreed with me and refused the offers of the Germans. The result was a paradoxical situation: the Germans were not able to approach Leningrad from the north…" Later it was asserted that there was no systematic shelling or bombing out of the Finnish territory.

The Finns knowingly saved Leningrad from occupation. Boroda is full of it.

[Elfie]

I saw that Ripley, was hoping Boroda would read it also. I was already creating a wall of text and I didn't want to make it worse than it already was.

I have learned a couple things in this thread. I always thought that the Finns didn't help with the siege of Leningrad at all. Even though the Finnish support was indeed limited, it was there. When it came time to complete the encirclement, the Finns refused. Effectively dooming the German efforts.

[Wmaker]

Not this BS again. Boroda has no sources what so ever to back up his claims.

Like he said himself if he hears two truths about an event in history for example he's gonna believe the Soviet version for his own sanity's sake. That alone is a pretty good indicator that there's really no objectiveness non what so ever involved in his thinking.

OTOH, if one starts to think about it...he obviously just has to believe the old system and the way of thinking he has been taught and accustomed to. He obviously just can't turn it off with a flick of a switch.

I pity him, really.

[Dago]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Borodas stories are always so contradicting. He speaks purely from the soviet side of the 'truth' which couldn't be any further off as we all know.

You're so brainwashed it's beyond belief. Soviets invented propaganda.

Bingo.  If he only could see that fact.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Wmaker
Not this BS again. Boroda has no sources what so ever to back up his claims.

I mentioned Tanner's book, "Winter War", didn't I?

Migrant camps did exist. Agree?

Ethnic segregation did exist in Karelia occupied by Finland. Agree?

Finns held a part of the frontline NW from Leningrad,

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Originally posted by Boroda
I mentioned Tanner's book, "Winter War", didn't I?

Migrant camps did exist. Agree?

Ethnic segregation did exist in Karelia occupied by Finland. Agree?

Finns held a part of the frontline NW from Leningrad,

Migrant camps did exist, agreed. They were not death camps however. Conditions were poor and people were starving - as they were in all of the country. We were fighting an enemy 10 times our size in manpower and even greater in resources.

Ethnic segregation did not exist, only the occupants of Soviet Union were expelled from the areas they had invaded. Why your civillian occupants didn't leave the area beforehand I don't understand. The huge amount of imprisoned foreign nationals overwhelmed the already poor logistics. Most of the people were already starved and sick when they got imprisoned. When soviets invaded Karelia initially, most finnish civillian people escaped - nobody wanted to end up on the wrong side of the border. The ones who stayed were sent to camps. This happened commonly already before the war. One man had a mission to walk from Finland to Africa - he was stopped a few km inside Karelia and sent to prison camp for no reason except his nationality.

Did you expect that once we took the areas back, we'd let all the new occupants stay freely in the area? It would be asking to get guerilla attacks from behind borders. The remote areas already had their experiences with russian Desants that were attacking defenseless civillian villages and slaughtering every man, woman and child. Those murderers are still labeled heroes of the Soviet Union btw.

Probably Soviet civillians stayed because they knew that they'd be going straight to gulags if they tried to escape. That's the only imaginable reason why one would stay at occupied areas when the enemy is regaining them.

If youre so keen on reading, check out (Erkki Vettenniemi:
 Surviving the Soviet Meat Grinder
 The Politics of Finnish Gular Memoirs.
 Julkaisija: Kikimora Publications.
 Aleksanteri Institute.)

It outlines the destiny of 4-10 million people sent arbitrarily to soviet prison- migrant- and deathcamps, commonly known as gulags. The finnish survivors of the camps returned with an average weight of 47kg, lightest survivor weighed only 37kg. These were male soldiers, averaging 75kg or more at the time of the capture.