Author Topic: Round 5 Exit Poll  (Read 3491 times)

Offline xNOVAx

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« Reply #75 on: April 07, 2007, 12:00:18 PM »
B-25..

I thought I'd stick with my 2 engine voting trend..


NOVA - Army of Muppets - Inactive

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return." -Leonardo da Vinci

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #76 on: April 07, 2007, 12:52:42 PM »
 Conversations with N. G. Golodnikov - Part Three. P-39 Airacobra and Yaks

Quote
A. S. Did you like the Cobra?

N. G. We liked them. Especially the Q-5. This was the best fighter of all three in which I fought. Of the Cobras, this was the lightest.


Quote
A. S. Was a 37mm cannon necessary? Wasn’t this too large a caliber for a fighter? You had so few rounds of ammunition. And wasn’t its rate of fire slow?

N. G. One cannot say that the 37mm cannon was a disadvantage or an advantage. Look at it from this perspective. The M-6 [should be M-4 – ed.] cannon had its strong and weak points. One had to take advantage of the strong points and compensate, as much as possible, for its weaknesses.

These were the weaknesses:  1. Low rate of fire. 8 rounds/second [this is incorrect—the correct rate is slightly over 2 rounds/second (130 rounds/minute) – J.G.] This is indeed a low rate of fire.

2. The ballistics of the projectile were abysmal. The flight trajectory of the projectile was arching, which required large lead angles. But again this was at long ranges, especially when firing at ground targets. When firing at ground targets we had to apply two rings of the sight for lead.

3. Minimal ammunition supply. Thirty rounds.

All these deficiencies could be compensated for by proper selection of firing range. If one fired from 70—50 meters, there was sufficient rate of fire, the ballistics at this range were acceptable, and the lead required was minimal. Thus, all the weaknesses of the 37mm cannon listed above revealed themselves only at long ranges.

Now regarding the strengths: 1. The projectile was very powerful. Normally, one strike on an enemy fighter and he was finished! In addition, we fired this cannon at other types of targets. Bombers, vessels at sea. The 37mm cannon was very effective against these targets.

Here is an example. Our patrol torpedo boats had torn apart a German convoy. The majority of them had in some way or other been damaged, but they were withdrawing. One patrol boat was heavily damaged and lagging behind a bit. German “hunter” boats were closing in on it. One of them moved in either to kill or capture it. There were eight of us; my squadron commander Vitya Maksimovich, had flown out in pair slightly ahead of us to reconnoiter the convoy and I was leading the other six. We were listening to the conversations of the PT boat crews (the PT boats, by the way, were American Higgins craft). The commander of the heavily damaged boat said, “They are on top of us!” My squadron commander said to him, “Don’t worry! I ‘ll get him now!” He dropped down and fired a burst of 37mm cannon. It was a pleasure to watch the German “hunter” go up in flames. Six Bf-109Fs were covering the convoy and supporting the attack on our PT boats. I engaged them with my group of six Cobras. We circled round and round. I shot down two Messerschmitts and damaged one (intelligence subsequently confirmed the damaged 109). Before we had even landed, the crew of the damaged PT boat reported by radio that one of the Cobras had shot down two Messers and another had set the German “hunter” on fire. This had all happened right in front of their eyes. Later Admiral A. V. Kuzmin, commander of the patrol torpedo boat brigade, personally expressed his appreciation to us. All our damaged PT boats made it back to their base.

Thus, a single burst of several 37mm projectiles was sufficient to set fire to or damage a “hunter-type” patrol vessel.

Here is another example. We were flying on a “free hunt” mission, four of us. I was the leader. We came upon a German tanker that we estimated at 3000—3500 tons. Most importantly, it was proceeding without escort! I gave the command, “Prepare to attack!” I dropped down and made my pass, firing a good burst. I pulled out at an altitude of 25 meters. He also fired back at me. OK, fine. My wingman made his pass on the target, then the leader of the second pair, and the fourth pilot reported, “It’s burning. I can’t see anything!” I responded, “OK, pull out, don’t engage.” We got a look at it, moving toward shore totally engulfed in flames. We flew back to our airfield and reported, “We set a tanker on fire, 3,500 tons.” And he replied, “Right. You set a tanker on fire with all of 38 rounds expended!” He didn’t believe what I was telling them. 38 rounds for 3,500 tons! I said to him, “Isn’t that enough? We put 38 rounds into that box!” At first everyone laughed at us, but later our agent intelligence gave us confirmation of that number. A German tanker of 3,500 tons displacement had been burned out. Everything fit. There you have it—38 rounds of 37mm cannon destroyed a 3,500-ton vessel!

2. The M-6 cannon was very reliable. If it was properly maintained it worked very reliably. We could charge the cannon only one time from the cockpit, but this one re-charging was completely sufficient. If this cannon malfunctioned, it was due entirely to unqualified maintenance.

I was involved in another incident. A young, inexperienced armorer installed the belts upside down, so that the teeth of the links of the belt were on top, for both machine guns and the cannon. We were flying in pair. This was my wingman’s second combat sortie. We spotted a pair of Fokkers[Fw-190 – ed.]. I attacked the lead Fokker, who went into a vertical climb. I fired a shot from my cannon, the glowing ball of the projectile’s tracer crossing the path of the enemy aircraft. The German, naturally, abruptly dove; the range closed rapidly and I had him in my sights. I got off one round from each machine gun and experienced a complete stoppage! I re-charged both guns—to no avail! None of my weapons worked! It was a good thing that I had hit him with these two rounds. The German was smoking heavily and had lost a great deal of speed. I had nothing to kill him with! I called to my wingman, “Get the Fritz!” But he was circling in a merry-go-round with the German’s wingman and continued to circle until the German shot him up. Except for “his own German,” my wingman did not see anything, and the damaged Fokker got away. On the ground it was discovered that my wingman had not fastened his earphones to his helmet, and during the high-G maneuvers his earphones had come off. He had not heard my commands. A month later someone shot down a German pilot in a Fokker, and during his interrogation by the division commander he asked, “Why, a month ago, did a pilot from this regiment not finish me off? Two of my cylinders were shot up.” (The German well knew that only the pilots of 2d GSAP VVS SF flew “red-nosed” Cobras. A. S.) Our division commander replied to him, “Yes, he was something of a screw up, kind of like you, but he didn’t get shot down.”

They badly wanted to send the armorer to a tribunal [courts martial], but he got off with a reprimand. I was categorically opposed to a tribunal. He was a young kid, still a “newbie”. The fault really lay with the armaments mechanic. It was his direct duty to check the correctness of the loading of the rounds. He knew that his armorer was inexperienced, but he did not stop to check and simply took the armorer’s word. “Is it ready?” “Yes, it’s ready.”


Quote
A. S. Nikilay Gerasimovich, could the Cobra really contend with the Bf-109G and FW-190 in aerial combat?

N. G.  Yes. The Cobra, especially the Q-5, took second place to no one, and even surpassed all the German fighters.

I flew more than 100 combat sorties in the Cobra, of these 30 in reconnaissance, and fought 17 air combats. The Cobra was not inferior in speed, in acceleration, nor in vertical or horizontal maneuverability. It was a very balanced fighter.

Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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« Reply #77 on: April 07, 2007, 02:08:47 PM »
I MUST ask this question.
Is the p39's 37mm the SAME type that is on the Pt boats?

Im diein' to know this,as we can practice with the pt's 37mm before we get our new ride :)
~383Rd RTC/CH BW/AG~
BaDfaRmA

My signature says "Our commitment to diplomacy will never inhibit our willingness to kick a$s."

Offline IronDog

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« Reply #78 on: April 07, 2007, 02:44:31 PM »
The 37mm in the P39 was made by Oldsmobile.I don't know if the 37mm on PT boats were the same or not.I'll bet someone can come up with a answer.I like Bruno's article by the Russian pilot.Seems the Ruski's liked the P39Q a lot.Could tangle with any of the LW planes and win.Maybe this lil bird isn't the Dog everyone sez it is.Russians should know a bit about that...,they flew'um!Widewings speed charts opened my eyes.Didn't realize how fast the old IronDog was at 5k.
ID
« Last Edit: April 07, 2007, 02:52:43 PM by IronDog »

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #79 on: April 07, 2007, 03:20:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruno
 Conversations with N. G. Golodnikov - Part Three. P-39 Airacobra and Yaks


I like this quote from Part Three:

"A.S.: Nikolay Gerasimovich, how would you evaluate the German fighters Bf-109E, Bf-109F, Bf-109G, and FW-190?

N.G.: The Germans had good fighters. Power, fast, maneuverable, and able to withstand damage.

Regarding the Bf-109E I can say that in its tactical and technical characteristics, he corresponded to the type-28 and type-29 I-16, surpassed all earlier types of the I-16 and Hurricane, and was inferior to the Yak-1, P-40,and P-39. According to the pilots of the 20th IAP, the Yak-1 was superior to the E in all parameters. This fighter was beginning to show its age by 1942, although in the North they employed it almost to the beginning of 1943. Later they withdrew all of them in a matter of a week or two. Apparently they had begun to suffer very serious losses. Later we encountered only the Bf-109F, Bf-109G, and FW-190.

The Bf-109F was superior to the E across the board; it was more modern. It was an unbelievably dynamic aircraft, with good speed and vertical maneuverability. In the horizontal it was not as good. Its armaments were normal—a 20mm cannon and two machine guns. Overall, of course, it was superior to all types of the I-16 and the Hurricane. It was equal to the Yak-1 and P-40, and slightly inferior to the P-39.

The Bf-109G was a powerful aircraft, fast and very good in vertical maneuver. It was not bad in horizontal maneuver but it appeared late, only in 1943, when all of our regiments had already been reequipped with modern aircraft. Overall in its tactical and technical characteristics it was on a par with the Yak-1B (7B, 9), La-5, and P-39 Airacobra, and a bit better than the P-40.
The Fokker [FW-190] also was a powerful and fast aircraft, but as a fighter it was inferior to the Bf-109G. It did not accelerate as quickly (large frontal area) and was not as capable in the vertical plane. The Fokker was extremely powerful and therefore was often employed as an attack aircraft. It carried external stores [bombs].

It must be said that the Bf-109G and FW-190 carried very powerful armaments, with five and six firing points respectively, for the most part cannons. This was a very strong aspect of German aircraft.

A.S.: From the literature we know the strong suits of the Bf-109G: 1. Powerful engine that was altitude-capable. 2. Powerful cannon armament. 3. Good dive characteristics. 4. Simple in control. 5. High speed and exceptional acceleration.

Its weaknesses: 1. Poor vision from cockpit. 2. Narrow chassis, which created serious difficulties during landing, especially with a crosswind. Does this cover it?

N.G.: Regarding high altitude performance I can’t say anything. I flew the Airacobra up to 8,000 meters [26,000 feet] and didn’t have any particular problem with the Messer. Neither we nor the Germans flew any higher than that. I heard that the Yak had problems at altitude but we rarely fought high altitude battles. The Messer engine had a supercharger. It had exceptional acceleration; if the pilot “firewalled it,” as they say. But I couldn’t describe its speed as outstanding. It was fast, but our aircraft had just as much speed.
The armaments were indeed powerful—five firing points, of which three were 20mm cannon. But again, my Airacobra had a 37mm cannon and therefore I had no inferiority complex regarding weak armaments. The G model was heavy and dived very well.

I can’t say anything regarding simplicity of control, the narrow chassis, and poor cockpit visibility. You’ll have to address these issues to German pilots. I will say that we shot down many Messers by attacking from the rear, but you can never tell precisely if it was because of poor visibility or the pilot simply didn’t look to the rear."

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #80 on: April 07, 2007, 03:23:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
I MUST ask this question.
Is the p39's 37mm the SAME type that is on the Pt boats?

Im diein' to know this,as we can practice with the pt's 37mm before we get our new ride :)


The PT Boat has a 40mm Bofors, or at least it should.....

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline -SR-

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« Reply #81 on: April 07, 2007, 03:36:13 PM »
Pus 39



-SR-

Offline Rino

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« Reply #82 on: April 07, 2007, 03:37:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
The PT Boat has a 40mm Bofors, or at least it should.....

My regards,

Widewing


40mm Aft, 37mm forward next to the 20mm.
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Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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« Reply #83 on: April 07, 2007, 03:37:44 PM »
X4 .50's "towers"
x1 20mm "left front"
x1 37mm "front"
x1 40mm "back"
~383Rd RTC/CH BW/AG~
BaDfaRmA

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Offline Zazen13

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« Reply #84 on: April 07, 2007, 06:43:35 PM »
Widewing, I thoroughly respect your ability to spew raw data on aircraft like it's a bodily function. But, your figures and the modelling reality that become translated to our computer game that is AH rarely meet. While on paper the P39 in its later incarnation in real life may appear competetive on some levels with our LW birds as they are actually modelled in the game, only time and the subjective reality that becomes the actual flight model in game will determine if it is in fact so.

Compare any 5 fighters in AH and its in game performance with their real life statistics as best as they can be determined by historical data, you will find very wide variability and disparity...You comparing your book's data on the P39 to the in-game data on our current birds is like comparing field mice and hump back whales. While they are both animals they are not of the same realm.

I too have a vast library of WWII literature filled with reams of data and anecdotal first hand accounts. The dubious success the P39 had was alot more to do with relative pilot training and numbers than the performance of the plane itself relative to its couterparts. By and large the consensus of those that flew it then went on to fly other fighter aircraft was that it was inferior on almost every level that mattered...

That being said, I'd prefer the P39 fighter to a redundant bomber, but I have serious doubts as to the P39's viability as anything other than a novelty in the LW main. I'd love to be proved wrong, and like others I believe and hope all of those planes HTC arbitrarily placed on that list will eventually be our toys to play with in the virtual skies...

Zazen
« Last Edit: April 07, 2007, 07:42:09 PM by Zazen13 »
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Offline whiteman

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« Reply #85 on: April 07, 2007, 07:22:06 PM »
25

Offline IronDog

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« Reply #86 on: April 07, 2007, 08:27:15 PM »
Trying to make sense out of how AH's aircraft are modeled,and how they will perform in the LW arenas is a tricky business.Even if you have the data,pilot inputs,etc.,you are still going to be guessing,even if it's a educated guess!I mean you have the Spit14 perked,whilst some noob is flying around in a Spit 16 racking up points in an unperked plane.Don't make sense does it?Everyone agreeing on things in a forum,not going to happen.I don't know why the Russian's liked the P39 so much,maybe they were the Rodney Dangerfields amongst pilots.You have furballers,toolshedders,GV'ers,pickers,HO's,dweebs,noobs,etc all trying to pick the right tool from what AH offers us.If the P39 is the winner,and they model it fairly and correctly,it will be a pleasant surprise to are plane set.If it brings fun to the pilot base,that is the thing I believe HT should strive for.
IronDog

Offline Raptor

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« Reply #87 on: April 07, 2007, 09:02:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zazen13
Widewing, I thoroughly respect your ability to spew raw data on aircraft like it's a bodily function. But, your figures and the modelling reality that become translated to our computer game that is AH rarely meet. While on paper the P39 in its later incarnation in real life may appear competetive on some levels with our LW birds as they are actually modelled in the game, only time and the subjective reality that becomes the actual flight model in game will determine if it is in fact so.

Compare any 5 fighters in AH and its in game performance with their real life statistics as best as they can be determined by historical data, you will find very wide variability and disparity...You comparing your book's data on the P39 to the in-game data on our current birds is like comparing field mice and hump back whales. While they are both animals they are not of the same realm.

I too have a vast library of WWII literature filled with reams of data and anecdotal first hand accounts. The dubious success the P39 had was alot more to do with relative pilot training and numbers than the performance of the plane itself relative to its couterparts. By and large the consensus of those that flew it then went on to fly other fighter aircraft was that it was inferior on almost every level that mattered...

That being said, I'd prefer the P39 fighter to a redundant bomber, but I have serious doubts as to the P39's viability as anything other than a novelty in the LW main. I'd love to be proved wrong, and like others I believe and hope all of those planes HTC arbitrarily placed on that list will eventually be our toys to play with in the virtual skies...

Zazen

Considering Widewing is usually the first to test all aircraft, compare them to charts and the post the results... I will listen to what widewing has to say...

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #88 on: April 07, 2007, 09:21:05 PM »
IMO, WW's a bit optomistic. No offense to you WW. I've read up on the P-39 as well, and IMO it just doesn't stack up as you suggest.


Just an opposing opinion. :aok

Offline humble

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« Reply #89 on: April 07, 2007, 09:32:27 PM »
I too have a vast library of WWII literature filled with reams of data and anecdotal first hand accounts. The dubious success the P39 had was alot more to do with relative pilot training and numbers than the performance of the plane itself relative to its couterparts. By and large the consensus of those that flew it then went on to fly other fighter aircraft was that it was inferior on almost every level that mattered...

Absolutely wrong....

The P-39 didnt have any "dubious" success. It played a key role in the most important air campaign on the eastern front. The air war over the kuban bridgehead is considered as important to the russians as midway was to the war in the pacific. The key VVS units flew the P-39 extensively and those units inflicted tremendous losses on the germans. The soviet aces who flew the P-39 continued to do so long after other "superior" planes were available. Bob Hoover, chcuk Yeager and Bud Anderson all felt the P-39 was an exceptional dogfighter. Was it superior to a plane like a P-51 at higher alts....of course not. But at the alts it was designed for its very capable....even against late war planes.

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