Author Topic: A bit pathetic...  (Read 2434 times)

Offline thndregg

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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2007, 01:34:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by LePaul
I see us adding another plane into a game with a severely broken strat system.  Still.

>shrug<

Enjoy your new plane  :)


Agreed.
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Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2007, 01:41:04 AM »
lol VooHoo

Offline aztec

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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2007, 04:55:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by LePaul
I see us adding another plane into a game with a severely broken strat system.  Still.

>shrug<

Enjoy your new plane  :)


I guess you simply do things differently than HT LePaul.

First he built a Flight Sim and then a forum to go with it,  you have built a forum, and then an R2D2.

Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2007, 07:30:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BBBB
Yes that makes perfect business sense. Let's pick an aircraft to satisfy 10% of our gaming public.

The people who fly late war already have their rides.  They've had them for years.  Look at the late war planes in this voting - most of them were hardly used during the war at all (WW says the G55 got, what, four kills?).  Given that you got first choice a long time ago, it isn't so strange that the people who have plodded along waiting for aircraft that were used during the rest of the war now have a chance.

- oldman

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2007, 07:43:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by cav58d
Whether we get the B-25, or the aerocobra, people will fly them like mad for the first month...Just like the spit 16....unlike the spit 16 though, neither of these airframes can compete against the current set of LW fighters...."but it's the "pilot" not the airplane"....TRUE.  How many awesome sticks do we have though?  

I'm calling it now.  12 months from now, the B-25 will be in a race for more sorties flown with the KI-67, or the P-39 will be head to head with ...........


ehhhh. nevermind.  why the hell do i even care lmao


I'm sure the B-25 will get plenty of use... It just won't win. I'm confident that the majority of players will vote for a fighter more than a bomber.

And what about that fighter? Let's examine the P-39Q-1.

Down where it will be flown, it will be superior to the Yak-9T, Ki-61, P-40s, Zeros, FM-2/F4F, P-38G (which is only faster above 17k) and the Hurricanes. All of the above are commonly found in the LWAs.

But, hold the phone. It will turn circles around the Yak-9U, C.205, all of the 190s, P-47s, P-38s, P-51s, Tiffie, Tempest, La-5 and La-7 as well as most of the 109s. It should, with flaps, hang with the F6F and F4Us. Inasmuch as the P-39Q climbs just about as well as the F6F and F4Us, it will give them a very hard time. Then we have the P-39M... It was fitted with the Allison V-1710-63 that generated 1,590 hp at 2,000 feet. That is more than the P-51B has on tap.

The more common P-39N and Q models had 1,420 hp available. A clean P-39Q with full fuel should manage about 380 mph at 10k and 385 mph at 12k. How does that compare to the rest of the plane set? Well, I've tested the entire plane set at 10k with 25% fuel. Here's some examples:

P-39Q-1: 380 mph
F4U-1D: 380 mph
La-5FN: 377 mph
P-38J: 373 mph
P-47D-11: 377 mph
Spitfire IX: 362 mph
Ki-84: 367 mph
Fw 190A-5: 366 mph
Bf 109G-2: 380 mph
C.205: 365 mph
Typhoon: 381 mph
Yak-9T: 352 mph
F6F-5: 354 mph

Guys, it doesn't take much thought to realize that the P-39Q will be very competitive in terms of speed in the low altitude environment of the LWAs.

I mentioned turning ability. Lets quantify that some. I will use the same fuel load as we use to measure turn radius; 25%.

So, this produces a weight of right around 7,200 lbs (the P-39 is a small fighter). It has a wing area of 213.22 sq/ft. Thus, we have a wing loading of 33.7 lbs per sq/ft. That's substantially better than the F6F-5 and getting real close to the Spitfires. If I calculate based upon wing loading and coefficient of lift, I find that the P-39Q will turn almost as well as the FM-2.

In conclusion, we are looking at a fighter that can turn like a Wildcat, offers competitive speed (and acceleration) and decent climb from sea level.

Do you guys still believe that the P-39 will be a hanger queen? Not a chance.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2007, 07:43:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Oldman731
The people who fly late war already have their rides.  They've had them for years.  Look at the late war planes in this voting - most of them were hardly used during the war at all (WW says the G55 got, what, four kills?).  Given that you got first choice a long time ago, it isn't so strange that the people who have plodded along waiting for aircraft that were used during the rest of the war now have a chance.

- oldman


I was kidding about the 4 kills.....   :)

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2007, 07:50:42 AM »
Geeesh ... there goes Widewing again spitting out statistics and not emotions ... :mad:

When are you going to learn Widewing ... :rolleyes:


;)
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Offline Wmaker

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« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2007, 08:13:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
So, this produces a weight of right around 7,200 lbs (the P-39 is a small fighter). It has a wing area of 213.22 sq/ft. Thus, we have a wing loading of 33.7 lbs per sq/ft. That's substantially better than the F6F-5 and getting real close to the Spitfires. If I calculate based upon wing loading and coefficient of lift, I find that the P-39Q will turn almost as well as the FM-2.


I'll wait and see how maneuverable it will be (if it gets added) but right now FM-2 turns better than either of the P-40s and P-40s were generally considered to be more maneuverable than P-39s in real life.
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Offline Bronk

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« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2007, 08:16:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
I'm sure the B-25 will get plenty of use... It just won't win. I'm confident that the majority of players will vote for a fighter more than a bomber.

And what about that fighter? Let's examine the P-39Q-1.

Down where it will be flown, it will be superior to the Yak-9T, Ki-61, P-40s, Zeros, FM-2/F4F, P-38G (which is only faster above 17k) and the Hurricanes. All of the above are commonly found in the LWAs.

But, hold the phone. It will turn circles around the Yak-9U, C.205, all of the 190s, P-47s, P-38s, P-51s, Tiffie, Tempest, La-5 and La-7 as well as most of the 109s. It should, with flaps, hang with the F6F and F4Us. Inasmuch as the P-39Q climbs just about as well as the F6F and F4Us, it will give them a very hard time. Then we have the P-39M... It was fitted with the Allison V-1710-63 that generated 1,590 hp at 2,000 feet. That is more than the P-51B has on tap.

The more common P-39N and Q models had 1,420 hp available. A clean P-39Q with full fuel should manage about 380 mph at 10k and 385 mph at 12k. How does that compare to the rest of the plane set? Well, I've tested the entire plane set at 10k with 25% fuel. Here's some examples:

P-39Q-1: 380 mph
F4U-1D: 380 mph
La-5FN: 377 mph
P-38J: 373 mph
P-47D-11: 377 mph
Spitfire IX: 362 mph
Ki-84: 367 mph
Fw 190A-5: 366 mph
Bf 109G-2: 380 mph
C.205: 365 mph
Typhoon: 381 mph
Yak-9T: 352 mph
F6F-5: 354 mph

Guys, it doesn't take much thought to realize that the P-39Q will be very competitive in terms of speed in the low altitude environment of the LWAs.

I mentioned turning ability. Lets quantify that some. I will use the same fuel load as we use to measure turn radius; 25%.

So, this produces a weight of right around 7,200 lbs (the P-39 is a small fighter). It has a wing area of 213.22 sq/ft. Thus, we have a wing loading of 33.7 lbs per sq/ft. That's substantially better than the F6F-5 and getting real close to the Spitfires. If I calculate based upon wing loading and coefficient of lift, I find that the P-39Q will turn almost as well as the FM-2.

In conclusion, we are looking at a fighter that can turn like a Wildcat, offers competitive speed (and acceleration) and decent climb from sea level.

Do you guys still believe that the P-39 will be a hanger queen? Not a chance.

My regards,

Widewing


Strange... I was told by a clown that the 9T was superior in every aspect to the P-39.

Who'd have thought a clown would be wrong.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

Bronk
« Last Edit: April 07, 2007, 08:19:02 AM by Bronk »
See Rule #4

Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2007, 08:49:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by cav58d
I think most of the people here are frustrated because they don't want to see an aircraft dedicated to arena's that never have more than 50-60 people in them at one time.


Cav I fly the Spit 1 in the LWA and OFTEN land kills.   Does this negate your argument and the 100+ other's who keep saying that very thing?
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Offline Gatr

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« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2007, 08:58:15 AM »
I am just happy we get to play....

Offline Simaril

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« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2007, 09:18:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BBBB
Yes that makes perfect business sense. Let's pick an aircraft to satisfy 10% of our gaming public. ...


-Sp0t


While I can understand getting cranked up about something, I'm still amazed at how some people can show absolute, 100% lack of logic.


Hate to point his out, Spot, but this POPULAR VOTE has been structured about as carefully as possible to assure that the MAJORITY gets what it wants.


Last time I checked, any candidate with 10% of the vote is defeated in a landslide....
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Offline Widewing

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« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2007, 10:21:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wmaker
I'll wait and see how maneuverable it will be (if it gets added) but right now FM-2 turns better than either of the P-40s and P-40s were generally considered to be more maneuverable than P-39s in real life.


I've read the same thing, but I'm sure that pilots were reluctant to push the P-39 very hard due to its reputation (generally a result of low-time pilots getting into trouble with the P-39's extremely sensitive and powerful elevators)..

If we look at Dean's figures in AHT, we find that his calculations place the P-63A-9 a close second to the FM-2 in turning ability. If we take the P-63's weight with full fuel (8,780 lb) and subtract enough fuel to get down to 25%, we are looking at a weight of about 8,380 lb. Divide this by the wing area of 248 sq/ft and we find a wing loading of 33.8 lb per sq/ft, which is almost identical to that of the P-39Q. The P-39Q has a higher maximum lift coefficient than the P-63A (see NACA TN 1044 located here). Thus, the P-39Q should turn even better than the P-63A.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Hwkeye

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« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2007, 11:46:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
I'm sure the B-25 will get plenty of use... It just won't win. I'm confident that the majority of players will vote for a fighter more than a bomber.

And what about that fighter? Let's examine the P-39Q-1.

Down where it will be flown, it will be superior to the Yak-9T, Ki-61, P-40s, Zeros, FM-2/F4F, P-38G (which is only faster above 17k) and the Hurricanes. All of the above are commonly found in the LWAs.

But, hold the phone. It will turn circles around the Yak-9U, C.205, all of the 190s, P-47s, P-38s, P-51s, Tiffie, Tempest, La-5 and La-7 as well as most of the 109s. It should, with flaps, hang with the F6F and F4Us. Inasmuch as the P-39Q climbs just about as well as the F6F and F4Us, it will give them a very hard time. Then we have the P-39M... It was fitted with the Allison V-1710-63 that generated 1,590 hp at 2,000 feet. That is more than the P-51B has on tap.

The more common P-39N and Q models had 1,420 hp available. A clean P-39Q with full fuel should manage about 380 mph at 10k and 385 mph at 12k. How does that compare to the rest of the plane set? Well, I've tested the entire plane set at 10k with 25% fuel. Here's some examples:

P-39Q-1: 380 mph
F4U-1D: 380 mph
La-5FN: 377 mph
P-38J: 373 mph
P-47D-11: 377 mph
Spitfire IX: 362 mph
Ki-84: 367 mph
Fw 190A-5: 366 mph
Bf 109G-2: 380 mph
C.205: 365 mph
Typhoon: 381 mph
Yak-9T: 352 mph
F6F-5: 354 mph

Guys, it doesn't take much thought to realize that the P-39Q will be very competitive in terms of speed in the low altitude environment of the LWAs.

I mentioned turning ability. Lets quantify that some. I will use the same fuel load as we use to measure turn radius; 25%.

So, this produces a weight of right around 7,200 lbs (the P-39 is a small fighter). It has a wing area of 213.22 sq/ft. Thus, we have a wing loading of 33.7 lbs per sq/ft. That's substantially better than the F6F-5 and getting real close to the Spitfires. If I calculate based upon wing loading and coefficient of lift, I find that the P-39Q will turn almost as well as the FM-2.

In conclusion, we are looking at a fighter that can turn like a Wildcat, offers competitive speed (and acceleration) and decent climb from sea level.

Do you guys still believe that the P-39 will be a hanger queen? Not a chance.

My regards,

Widewing


I have to tell you Widewing the plane you describe above was not the plane I flew in Warbirds.  The P-39 was not an uber-plane in there nor in WWII. It was not competitive in the interceptor role (if my history serves me correctly that is what it was originally intended for) so the P-39 was relegated to the air-to-mud role pretty quickly with the onset of hostilities.  You have to credit the Russians for making Lemonade out of a lemon with that plane!  Now IF it will bust open a TIGR in AHII it has got a role in the LW arena otherwise as they say "not so much". I see it more being used in the Special Events arena because of it's use by the US and Russia.

I will acknowledge the fact that anything new will be utilized by pilots and I consider that a good thing.  Particularly if it will keep pilots interested in AH2. (Honestly, although I don't do a huge amount of GV driving in AH2 I am actually more excited about the Firefly coming on board than either of the two finalist!)

Offline tedrbr

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« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2007, 11:51:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
While I can understand getting cranked up about something, I'm still amazed at how some people can show absolute, 100% lack of logic.

Hate to point his out, Spot, but this POPULAR VOTE has been structured about as carefully as possible to assure that the MAJORITY gets what it wants.

Last time I checked, any candidate with 10% of the vote is defeated in a landslide....


Logic?

But the fact it's a popular vote, and the planes that have made it through the rounds, is what makes that argument not track.  Look at who flies what and where online in this game:

(Using kills + deaths combined by plane against total numbers to get a general idea of actual use in game, since spawn numbers are not available)
N1K2, P-51D, Spitfire Mk XVI, La-7, SeaFire in March made up 26.8% of plane use in order of use.   Over 1/4th.
Add the the B-24J, Typhoon IB, F6F-5, P-38L, Bf 110G-2, Hurricane Mk IIC, Spitfire Mk VIII, Lancaster III, F4U-1D, and those 14 planes make up another for 52.1% (9 planes for another 25.3%)  of all planes used in March, out of 74 total aircraft.
37 (half) other aircraft make up 13.6% of the planes used in the game, with the Ar234 running dead last.

Over 90% of the online population can be found in the 2 Late War Arenas. The SEA, EW, MW, AvA, and TA combined only make up a fraction of the presence in ONE LW arena.

So, how does 90% of the population, usually flying the 14 planes listed, usher a EW, medium level bomber, less capable than the B-26, through the rounds?

They don't know what they are voting for; were unfamiliar with the planes and their performance envelopes and capabilities?  
They are voting for what they recognize from the list (name recognition); Doolittle Raid, a Movie?
They are voting for a medium bomber that can take off from a CV?   (sur-prise!)
Are they voting for a slow firing, manually loading (when not pulling G's) 75mm gun platform with 20 rounds, historically used for anti-shipping operations to use against GV's that Osties and M-16's will chew up for lunch?
Or, since none of the planes on the list given were seen as being more Uber than their L-gays, Splixteens, Nik-weeds, and  Runstangs, they voted for the easy target drone in hopes to pad their scores on it's release?

"The majority gets what it wants" ... Does the majority even know what it would be getting?  I seriously question that it at this point.

I could understand the Yak 3 (air superiority), P-39 (low level fighter and Russian use), Oscar (IJA fighter), A-26 (perkable buff and from AW fame), I can even see the  Me 410 (with the big gun).  The G.55 being cut in the first round with 3 X 20mm's with 200-250 rpg was a big surprise to me, considering the planes the majority (thus the voters) usually fly in the arenas.  But of all the planes on that list, the B-25 makes it to the final round?  

Sorry, I'm not buying the historical inclusion arguments, or those saying the majority want another EW aircraft to use in the EW arena.  How the majority currently play the game does not support such claims.  I am supposed to believe the low numbers in EW is because the Mitchell is not there?  "It deserves to be represented in the game." I've heard as well; and you can argue that easily enough (along with He-111, P-39 and Pe-2 on sheer numbers and important fronts), but does not reflect the online majority population's habits.

Are those fighter pilots going to start flying a slow EW bomber with a 2,000 to 3,000 bomb load?  Are the Lanc and B-24 drivers going to?  Are IL-2 pilots going to opt for a larger, slower, less maneuverable plane with similar ord capabilities for 1 X 75mm X 20 rds HE gun rather than 2 X 23mm X 150rpg AP guns against GV's?

It would be very interesting if HTC posted the total votes from each round after the final round to better track how the majority was voting through this process.  It would certainly provide better insight as to what the majority was thinking.