Author Topic: Another sly hit on the Bombers (Read 6056 times)

whels · « **Reply #120 on:** July 12, 2007, 02:33:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by WaRLoCkL

Also another note, Real buffs in ww2 flew at insane altitudes, thats why they survived, if u fly around no higher than 20k dont expect to make it home.

routine Bomber alts where between i think 12 and 23k. rarely did they bomb from higher alts. 2 reasons. 1 accuracy was way down from higher up, and Fighters of the era needed the buffs lower to be able to cover them effectively. Fighters of ww2 couldnt fly/fight well enough above 25
30k to cover bombers if they also where that high.

Serenity · « **Reply #121 on:** July 12, 2007, 08:13:26 PM »

Alright. Once more. What do you consider 'rediculous' altitudes? B-17s basically STOP climbing at 35,000 feet. They NORMALLY bombed around 20,000. So, STOP B**CHING ABOUT 20K BUFFS! THATS WHAT THE Golly-geeNED PLANE WAS DESIGNED TO DO! You want all the bombers at 5k or less so your ub3r fighters can chew them to pieces. TOO BAD! SUCK IT UP AND CLIMB UP TO THEM!!! Just because you dont have the patience to climb to altitude to pad your score doesnt mean you should force the pilots WILLING to fly their plane WHERE IT BELONGS, to drop back down to a disadvantage! If you dont like 20k bomber formations, and think thats "rediculously high" talk to a SINGLE B-17 or B-24 pilot about where THEY dropped there bombs and WHY they were so high. In fact, if you want to know why bombers like altitude, talk to a survivor of Ploesti. Heres a hint: Bombers on the deck never ends well. So if you want winds at 20k, 15k, or even 12k, GET WINDS ON THE DECK TOO!!! Dont force the realistic pilots to compensate for disadvantages you yourself are unwilling to weather. So climb up, or shut up, but DONT try to force us to the deck. Give me winds, and I will STILL drop your strats, your hangars, and your individual tanks from 20,000 feet with more accuracy than you can dream of. Because I have the patience to COMPENSATE.

2Slow · « **Reply #122 on:** July 12, 2007, 11:10:19 PM »

Well said Serenity.

Realism...true realism would kill the game. No auto combat trim. Not a big deal for the buffs. It would be a killer for the fighters. Imagine having to constantly adjust you trim to maintain controled flight.

Adjust your carb settings to maintain combustion. Tweak this and tweak that just to maintain control.

Realism...I have seen, first hand, the "hangers" used at WWII German and Allied fields. It would only take a 100 pound tnt hit to make the hanger non-operational. Granted, the hangers in AH also represent the combined effort of base personnel, supplies, cantonment areas...and so on to enable the hangers fighter or bomber mission.

Want masses of bombers? Remember the Rooks Joint Operations (RJO)? Now we have ENY, which kills off the numbers.

If 6 fighters attack a formation of 3 B17's (1 pilot and 1 gunner) you have a 3 to 1 advantage. If the fighters have good gunnery skills, then the buffs should suffer. Don't forget the rule of thumb for combat: One can be expected (all things being equal and no handsomehunk mistakes) to resist a 3 to 1 attack and sustain the defense. 5 to 1 and up, the defenders are doomed.

Want to improve your aerial gunnery skills? Check out http://www.oldmanuals.com/gunnery.htm

WWII was a numbers thing. A barrel of fighters against a bucket of bombers.

Anyone · « **Reply #123 on:** July 13, 2007, 03:47:28 PM »

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Originally posted by SkyRock
U have pissed off Anyone, and LYNX, u are getting close to hanging wit Das Muppets!:aok

Mark

didnt piss me off, i respect whels and his ideas alot... just not this one

JB35 · « **Reply #124 on:** July 13, 2007, 06:10:41 PM »

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Originally posted by Serenity
talk to a survivor of Ploesti.

IIRC only 1 or 2 made it back ?

Widewing · « **Reply #125 on:** July 13, 2007, 06:58:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by whels
routine Bomber alts where between i think 12 and 23k. rarely did they bomb from higher alts. 2 reasons. 1 accuracy was way down from higher up, and Fighters of the era needed the buffs lower to be able to cover them effectively. Fighters of ww2 couldnt fly/fight well enough above 25
30k to cover bombers if they also where that high.

B-24s typically bombed from between 22k and 26k, with B-17s bombing between 24k and 28k. B-29s could be found at 30k and higher.

As to fighters, the P-47's best altitude was 32k, with the P-38J and P-51D having their best performance at 25k. American escort fighters were optimized for high altitude combat. Japanese and the Luftwaffe fighters were generally out-classed up that high, being engineered for medium altitudes.

I suggest this book: The Mighty Eighth War Manual by Roger A. Freeman. He goes into detail about the operations of the 8th AF, the procedures, altitudes and equipment used.

My regards,

Widewing

Widewing · « **Reply #126 on:** July 13, 2007, 07:08:56 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 2Slow

Realism...true realism would kill the game. No auto combat trim. Not a big deal for the buffs. It would be a killer for the fighters. Imagine having to constantly adjust you trim to maintain controled flight.

Trim doesn't maintain controlled flight. It reduces stick and rudder forces, thus reducing pilot workload and fatigue. Pilots maintain controlled flight.

Bf 109s didn't have rudder trim tabs adjusted by the pilot. They were preset on the ground to suit the pilot's preference. If he flew at a speed where the trim changed, he simply applied constant rudder displacement to keep the ball centered. It could be tiring.

My regards,

Widewing

Widewing · « **Reply #127 on:** July 13, 2007, 07:24:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by whels
In WW2, 300 Bombers where needed to drop on a target to get 1 yes 1 bomb on target, and that with them considering a hit was within 300 yards of target.

From the Strategic Bombing Survey, ETO:

Conventionally the air forces designated as "the target area" a circle having a radius of 1000 feet around the aiming point of attack. While accuracy improved during the war, Survey studies show that, in the over-all, only about 20% of the bombs aimed at precision targets fell within this target area. A peak accuracy of 70% was reached for the month of February 1945.

My regards,

Widewing

Serenity · « **Reply #128 on:** July 13, 2007, 10:58:51 PM »

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Originally posted by JB35
IIRC only 1 or 2 made it back ?

It was a few more, but that was exactly my point

2Slow · « **Reply #129 on:** July 14, 2007, 10:32:16 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Widewing
Trim doesn't maintain controlled flight. It reduces stick and rudder forces, thus reducing pilot workload and fatigue. Pilots maintain controlled flight.

Bf 109s didn't have rudder trim tabs adjusted by the pilot. They were preset on the ground to suit the pilot's preference. If he flew at a speed where the trim changed, he simply applied constant rudder displacement to keep the ball centered. It could be tiring.

My regards,

Widewing

Quite true. Now imagine that in order to keep the ball centered and get a good shot, you were always having to twist the sticks rudder or press on a pedal to achieve this. Think it might get a bit tiring even from the comfort of our virtual cockpits?

Try this (pick your favorite fighter), join a furball or work on strafing ground targets. Before engaging, control-x and turn off your combat trim. Fly like you normally would. I would hazard that you will have an AAI event rather quickly! AAI? Run out of Altitude, Airspeed, and Ideas at the same time

Widewing · « **Reply #130 on:** July 14, 2007, 11:24:24 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by 2Slow
Quite true. Now imagine that in order to keep the ball centered and get a good shot, you were always having to twist the sticks rudder or press on a pedal to achieve this. Think it might get a bit tiring even from the comfort of our virtual cockpits?

Try this (pick your favorite fighter), join a furball or work on strafing ground targets. Before engaging, control-x and turn off your combat trim. Fly like you normally would. I would hazard that you will have an AAI event rather quickly! AAI? Run out of Altitude, Airspeed, and Ideas at the same time

I fight without combat trim most of the time... No problems whatsoever. I adjust trim as required via my trim buttons on my stick. Simple and easy.

My regards,

Widewing

Bronk · « **Reply #131 on:** July 14, 2007, 11:29:46 AM »

2slow, imagine me shooting out one engine on your multi engined bomber.

With no auto trim think about having to jump back and forth trimming on final bombing run.

Opps slowed down, got to retrim.

Bronk

Serenity · « **Reply #132 on:** July 14, 2007, 12:33:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Bronk
2slow, imagine me shooting out one engine on your multi engined bomber.

With no auto trim think about having to jump back and forth trimming on final bombing run.

Opps slowed down, got to retrim.

Bronk

Thats why you get your speed to even out before sighting the target. Even missing an engine I make sure that my speed is stable for 25 miles before linning on the target. Hell, lol. At the power setting I fly, I can just throttle up and the speed wont ever change!

Bronk · « **Reply #133 on:** July 14, 2007, 03:37:31 PM »

You missed the point. Without auto trim that's one more thing you'd have to adjust.

Bronk

Serenity · « **Reply #134 on:** July 14, 2007, 08:09:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Bronk
You missed the point. Without auto trim that's one more thing you'd have to adjust.

Bronk

But its not that difficult to adjust. Takes a second or two at most. I fly without autotrim most of the time in bombers just for the hell of it. I mean, with our E6B we can tell INSTANTLY exactly how much we're climbing or descending, and that little slip-skid indicator is a pilot's best friend...