Cherokee questions

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Wolfala
Bakersfield, CA

Not the driest place on the planet.

Are you referring to the Cherokee or the Lancair?

[Wolfala]

Lancair is in Bakersfield. The Piper says its registered up in Castro Valley, so that could be a Bay Area airport or maybe somewhere south near Monterey. Hard to tell with the photos.

[Chairboy]

The Cherokee is in Soledad, CA:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Soledad,+CA&layer=&ie=UTF8&z=10&ll=36.427912,-121.327515&spn=0.744738,1.834717&om=1&iwloc=addr

[Chairboy]

Some really good advice here, I've been thinking about it, and while this might be a good plane for someone else, I think I'd like something without as many "well, IF x happens it'll be ok" caveats.

I've found this in Camarillo:
http://www.aso.com/i.aso3/aircraft_view.jsp?aircraft_id=105533&return_url=/i.aso3/search.jspyyyyyiaso3sid=1xxxxxsearchid=11346551xxxxxtypeid=1xxxxxmmgid=52xxxxxmodelgroup=truexxxxxsearchid=11346551xxxxxregionid=-1

It's a 1984 Warrior II, almost identically equipped to the plane I trained in in Santa Monica.  The guy who owns the FBO where I trained is also an A&P/IA, so I'm going to call him today and chat him up about this plane.  If I decide to pursue it, he may be able to do the pre-buy inspection.  

Some things I really like about this:
* Fully equipped for IFR, with current signoffs.
* Used as a rental, which means it's been flying constantly instead of sitting for the last couple years.
* It's lived in Camarillo, which is pretty dang dry, since the 80s.
* Engine has 2085 hours, much better than the other one.

I'll report back with an update after I talk to the guy I know in LA about whether I pursue this.

[Wolfala]

Chair,

Agree on it being not as much of a **** as the first one, but some of the same issues remain.

1.  You've got another $15k to spend on an overhaul since it is at 2085.


But most important and what we have not heard yet, what is your mission profile? Are you dead set on a PA-28?


Wolf

[Chairboy]

I've chosen the Cherokee because I think it meets my immediate mission requirements.  First, and I don't think this is a small issue, it's a plane that I have a lot of time in.  Second, I know how much space it has.  The Grumman appears to have a smaller cabin, and considering my long legs and not insubstantial mass, the known comfort of the PA-28-161 is a pretty important thing.

The 2085 hours is a lot, but it's also been flown continuously, which is good.  It's been on a 100 hour cycle, and if the mechanic I know blesses it (good comps, oil consumption, time to pressurize, temps, borescope, etc) then a few hundred more isn't unreasonable.  It's guidance, not a line in the sand.  If the engine is tired or there's anything in the logbook that gets his attention, then walking away is money well spent.

[Wolfala]

OK fair enough. Leeme know what you decide. If yr gonna go down that way i'll fly in and do the pre-buy with ya.

[Chairboy]

Thanks for the offer!  My A&P guy from Santa Monica is going to check out the logs and I'll let y'all know what happens next.  Even if we don't get together for this plane, I'll definately want to buy you a beer sometime if I'm in your neighborhood, you've asked some hard questions and given a good non-cheerleader perspective, and that's worth 2 "sounds good" anyday.  

[Wolfala]

Yr flying back north, which means you are stopping in the Bay Area for gas.

[Chairboy]

Good point, this plane definately isn't the gas sipper the LongEZ is...  

[Chairboy]

He scanned in the last few years of the logs to send to my A&P for review.  I put them up at http://hallert.net/misc/228wclogs/ for him to read 'em, and we'll talk tomorrow morning.  If the logs look good, then he's flying out to do an inspection tomorrow with a friend of mine.

[Dago]

The guy who painted the aircraft needs to learn the differance between "replaced" and "reinstalled".

[Chairboy]

So my mechanic guy called me back after inspecting the plane, and he wasn't sure the asking price reflected the condition of the aircraft.

His squawk list started with some small and or easy to repair stuff:
1. Empty whiskey compass.  
2. Throttle/Mixture controls are stiff, the lines need lubrication or replacement.
3. The latch that keeps the door from hitting the cowling is disconnected because of a missing screw.

Starts to move to the more expensive:
4. #2 com is weak and has a lot of static, #1 is ok.  The NAVs were ok, but he couldn't get the DME to indicate.  
5. Window seals leak.  It just rained a lot down there, and there was some water on the edges of the carpet on both sides.  He suspects the seal around the door too.
6. The switch for the nightlight is real loose, and the domelight is inop.  Could be a lightbulb, could be something more complicated.
7. The propeller is the original.  As the plane has been on a 100 cycle for all of it's 8500+ hours, the "let's file off the leading edges to take care of knicks" strategy has brought it to a point where he's not certain it would pass a legit annual inspection or prop overhaul, so budgeting a new $2800 or so prop would be wise.
8. Left main tire worn, needs replacement.
9. The gas gauges read high.  The tank was 1/3 or so, but the gauges read full.  The FARs only require them to be accurate when indicating empty, but I've got suspicions that they may not, in fact, do so.  I fly off a clock, not the gauges, but they're useful for noticing leaks and are a definite airworthiness item.

He said one of the cylinders had great compression, one was ok, and two felt a little weak.  

He wasn't confident in the last annual it got, and advised me to have a full bore annual done as a condition of purchase, including borescope inspection of the engine, checking for metal in the oil filter, etc.  While he was saying this, I was getting a definite vibe that he wasn't terribly confident in this plane, and that it had been "ridden pretty hard and put away wet", to interject a colloquialism.  

After this, I don't think I'll buy the plane, unless the guy takes a much lower offer that accounts for the amount of work needed to bring it up to standards.

It has a nice "classic" IFR avionics stack, but that's not worth anything if the avionics transportation device (ie, the plane) can't fly.

[Wolfala]

Originally posted by Chairboy
So my mechanic guy called me back after inspecting the plane, and he wasn't sure the asking price reflected the condition of the aircraft.

His squawk list started with some small and or easy to repair stuff:
1. Empty whiskey compass.  
2. Throttle/Mixture controls are stiff, the lines need lubrication or replacement.
3. The latch that keeps the door from hitting the cowling is disconnected because of a missing screw.

Starts to move to the more expensive:
4. #2 com is weak and has a lot of static, #1 is ok.  The NAVs were ok, but he couldn't get the DME to indicate.  
5. Window seals leak.  It just rained a lot down there, and there was some water on the edges of the carpet on both sides.  He suspects the seal around the door too.
6. The switch for the nightlight is real loose, and the domelight is inop.  Could be a lightbulb, could be something more complicated.
7. The propeller is the original.  As the plane has been on a 100 cycle for all of it's 8500+ hours, the "let's file off the leading edges to take care of knicks" strategy has brought it to a point where he's not certain it would pass a legit annual inspection or prop overhaul, so budgeting a new $2800 or so prop would be wise.
8. Left main tire worn, needs replacement.
9. The gas gauges read high.  The tank was 1/3 or so, but the gauges read full.  The FARs only require them to be accurate when indicating empty, but I've got suspicions that they may not, in fact, do so.  I fly off a clock, not the gauges, but they're useful for noticing leaks and are a definite airworthiness item.

He said one of the cylinders had great compression, one was ok, and two felt a little weak.  

He wasn't confident in the last annual it got, and advised me to have a full bore annual done as a condition of purchase, including borescope inspection of the engine, checking for metal in the oil filter, etc.  While he was saying this, I was getting a definite vibe that he wasn't terribly confident in this plane, and that it had been "ridden pretty hard and put away wet", to interject a colloquialism.  

After this, I don't think I'll buy the plane, unless the guy takes a much lower offer that accounts for the amount of work needed to bring it up to standards.

It has a nice "classic" IFR avionics stack, but that's not worth anything if the avionics transportation device (ie, the plane) can't fly.

OK,

Just off the top of my head i'm gonna run some numbers by you.

1.  The empty whiskey compass will run about $200 with material and labor.
2.  The Throttle/Mixture controls can either run 4 hours shop rate or 4 hours shop rate and materials. Materials for that would run around 2-300, but the lion share is shop time.
3.  The latch, find a screw. Thats probably the cheapest thing here.


4.  The NAV/COM items. Those have to be farmed out to an avionics shop if your A&P doesn't have one right next to him. Usually those will be charged a flat troubleshooting rate like $300. Ex: I had a motherboard on a Garmin 300 Transponder go tits up - Garmin charged $300, replaced the board and gave it a warantee. It failed a month later in a snow storm in the mountains - but got swapped out no charge.
5.  Window seals, find out the recommended sealant Piper uses for that vintage. See if you can do the work and the A&P can sign it if you do it right. Its not difficult.  $50
6.  Change the bulb and find out. $3.50
7.  Prop switch - new prop:  $3000. Balancing and hanging - 5 hours labor.
8.  Main tire:  $350 (no ****) and you can change the tire yourself if you have a pair of jacks you can borrow.
9.  Fuel tank sending unit:  $300 for the sending unit. Troubleshooting - 2 hours shoprate.
10.  The engine is spent - compression is just biding your time before you gotta get an overhaul or trade in the core. Either way, $15,000 + labor and the stuff on the accessories case - (mags, alternator, vac pumps, fuel pump).

[Chairboy]

Yep, pretty much exactly the estimates my guy was giving me too.  The engine is, of course, the 800lb gorilla in the room.  If it had been getting good compressions and behaving in the other usual fashions, I would probably have been ok with it, but not after the hands-on evaluation by someone working in my best interest.

BTW, when it comes to buying a plane, "Doing it right" sure is expensive.    Well, I suppose it's actually a significant savings, it's just that the costs are upfront instead of big expenses that surprise you later.  I've heard of enough $20,000 first post-purchase annuals, no need to add to those statistics.

I'm following up on another plane I was looking at before I started looking to finagle a Warrior II in my budget (which seems less likely as time passes).  It's a 1962 Cherokee 160 that I think I mentioned in passing before:

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_159446_%2762+Piper+Cherokee+160.html

$32k asking, it's been listed a month.  1435SMOH, 4100TTAF.  I sent the owner an email asking about how often it goes flying to start with, and to see if it's still available.  It's a 4 hours drive from here, so might be worth checking out.