Author Topic: Lockups: Finally found cause (and it's AH) (Read 1419 times)

airhog99 · « **on:** April 18, 2007, 09:15:39 PM »

I have changed device drivers and even mucked with the hardware due to frequent lockups in AH. They seemed to start after I upgraded my computer (OS and HW), so the suspicion was naturally on the new stuff.

Now I have finally tracked down the problem to the video setting for capping frames per second! If I set it to max 60 fps, then a lockup will happen soon or withing 15 minutes for sure. If I set it to "unlimited" I can play for hours, and AH seems rock-solid. (Unlimited seems to cap at 60 fps anyway for some reason.)

If Hitech Creations can't reproduce this I will be glad to produce more detailed information on my system. Shortly, I have:

AMD Dual Core at 2.2 GHz. 1 GB 800 MHz RAM.
GeForce 6800GT PCIe, 256MB.
nVidia 430 mobo circuits.

Sincraft · « **Reply #1 on:** April 18, 2007, 09:19:41 PM »

seems like tech support is a bit limited here. Guess this is just community run and possibly there is another official method?

airhog99 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 18, 2007, 09:24:54 PM »

Yeah, I'll look into it. This post might help someone though.

Skuzzy · « **Reply #3 on:** April 19, 2007, 06:09:18 AM »

The cap is there for video cards which have a problem with tearing (not honoring v-sync). Iti s optional to use. If your card does not honor v-sync and it is having a problem when using this option, then just send in a DXDIAG output with a description of the video settings using in the game.

As per the help documentation:
"The option to limit framerate is recommended if you are seeing blue flashes while running Aces High II or if you are experiencing numerous lockups."

If the lockups continue, then there are usually other issues at hand. But that is a guess without seeing the DXDIAG output.

Quote

Originally posted by Sincraft
seems like tech support is a bit limited here. Guess this is just community run and possibly there is another official method?

There is phone and E-mail support. I would say the bulletin board has the lowest priority, but is a good source for reaching out to the community.

airhog99 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 19, 2007, 09:51:35 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Skuzzy
The cap is there for video cards which have a problem with tearing (not honoring v-sync). Iti s optional to use. If your card does not honor v-sync and it is having a problem when using this option, then just send in a DXDIAG output with a description of the video settings using in the game.

As per the help documentation:
"The option to limit framerate is recommended if you are seeing blue flashes while running Aces High II or if you are experiencing numerous lockups."

Ehh.. And in my case the fps-limiter caused lockups..
I initially set the limit in order to save some CPU cycles for other things running on the machine. It is bizarre that a fps-limit should cause lockups. (fps-limiting in Flightsim X works just fine, BTW.)

Quote

Originally posted by Skuzzy
If the lockups continue, then there are usually other issues at hand. But that is a guess without seeing the DXDIAG output.

There is phone and E-mail support. I would say the bulletin board has the lowest priority, but is a good source for reaching out to the community.

I haven't had a single lockup since I changed to "Unlimited" fps. With fps set to 60 I sometimes get a lockup even as I exit the settings page. ("Lockup" normally means the process stops responding. Occasionally it managed to bring down the machine.)

fuzeman · « **Reply #5 on:** April 19, 2007, 10:00:01 AM »

9 hours for a response is pretty good in my opinion.

Complaining 4 minutes after a post is a little early, don't you think?
After all, you posted after 10pm.

Also, you used this setting for other things running on your machine. Another 'don't do' while running Aces High.
And per Skuzzy's post, you used the frame limiter for what it was not intended for. Why would you even use it if your frame rate was at 60 when you used the unlimited setting?

Skuzzy · « **Reply #6 on:** April 19, 2007, 11:01:38 AM »

The frame rate limiter will not free any CPU cycles. The game still does the same amount of work.

humble · « **Reply #7 on:** April 19, 2007, 11:58:57 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by airhog99
Ehh.. And in my case the fps-limiter caused lockups..
I initially set the limit in order to save some CPU cycles for other things running on the machine. It is bizarre that a fps-limit should cause lockups. (fps-limiting in Flightsim X works just fine, BTW.)

I haven't had a single lockup since I changed to "Unlimited" fps. With fps set to 60 I sometimes get a lockup even as I exit the settings page. ("Lockup" normally means the process stops responding. Occasionally it managed to bring down the machine.)

I'm curious how you know what actually caused your lockup. The fact that you think your saving CPU cycles indicates a less then stellar grasp of the ineractions between the game your CPU and your GPU. It's certainly possible that AH has conflicts with other programs and is locking up. Many folks use FS autostart to limit processes while playing AH.

Some VC drivers work better with AH then others. Skuzzy has gone out of his way to provide detailed recommendations on settings & drivers for various VC's and CPU/memory combo's. My 1st question would be are you running AH with the "proper" VC drivers and at settings appropriate for your computer?

airhog99 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 20, 2007, 05:57:57 AM »

Try looking at the posters' IDs before you jump in.

Try not to worry about WHY I use an existing feature in the program.

Quote

Originally posted by fuzeman
9 hours for a response is pretty good in my opinion.

Complaining 4 minutes after a post is a little early, don't you think?
After all, you posted after 10pm.

Also, you used this setting for other things running on your machine. Another 'don't do' while running Aces High.
And per Skuzzy's post, you used the frame limiter for what it was not intended for. Why would you even use it if your frame rate was at 60 when you used the unlimited setting?

airhog99 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 20, 2007, 06:03:28 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by humble
I'm curious how you know what actually caused your lockup. The fact that you think your saving CPU cycles indicates a less then stellar grasp of the ineractions between the game your CPU and your GPU. It's certainly possible that AH has conflicts with other programs and is locking up. Many folks use FS autostart to limit processes while playing AH.

Some VC drivers work better with AH then others. Skuzzy has gone out of his way to provide detailed recommendations on settings & drivers for various VC's and CPU/memory combo's. My 1st question would be are you running AH with the "proper" VC drivers and at settings appropriate for your computer?

I'm curious too.

Why wouldn't a lower frame rate potentially save CPU cycles? Please explain in detail, as my computer engineering education is getting older by the day.

I have killed and uninstalled a lot of junk already. I only run a music server in the background, and it seems to cause no problems.

Yes, som drivers are worse than others, which is why I have tried four different revisions. Turns out they all worked the same (no difference when it comes to lockup) and the latest revision works just fine.

Skuzzy · « **Reply #10 on:** April 20, 2007, 06:37:09 AM »

The game still has to calculate all the information, which makes up a frame of data, regardless if it is displayed or not. You simply cannot stop doing real-time calculations.

Unpredictable results have been known to occur when running other active programs in the background of a DirectX application. DirectX was designed to use 100% of the CPU.

airhog99 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 20, 2007, 07:54:47 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Skuzzy
The game still has to calculate all the information, which makes up a frame of data, regardless if it is displayed or not. You simply cannot stop doing real-time calculations.

Unpredictable results have been known to occur when running other active programs in the background of a DirectX application. DirectX was designed to use 100% of the CPU.

So what is the internal time resolution in that case?
If what you say is correct, then there must be an optimal frame rate that exactly corresponds to the internal time resolution (assuming the graphics and bus can handle the FPS).

I find it a bit hard to believe there are no display output related calculations that are fps related, but if you say so...

SkyGnome · « **Reply #12 on:** April 20, 2007, 07:03:24 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Skuzzy
The frame rate limiter will not free any CPU cycles. The game still does the same amount of work.

Dude, I think you are flat-out smoking crack on this one. Limiting the frame rate will seriously reduce CPU use, if you are running the game at a high (well over sync rate) frame rate when unlimitted. There's a ton of work that gets done on the CPU while renderring a frame that will happen 80 times per second instead of 200 times.

Check it with the task manager (when not Atl-Tabbed, when which y'all should set a frame rate cap, so that it doesn't consume all CPU, btw.)

Or show me a tool that shows otherwise.

Or just go ask your boss.

SkyGnome · « **Reply #13 on:** April 20, 2007, 07:11:13 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by fuzeman

And per Skuzzy's post, you used the frame limiter for what it was not intended for. Why would you even use it if your frame rate was at 60 when you used the unlimited setting?

The only reasons that I've heard of NOT using vertical-sync is for benchmarking, and because some early games actually ran the physics differerently based on frame rate (early Quakes), which could give a player an advantage. Otherwise, it just causes artifacts, and uses unneccessary CPU cycles.

humble · « **Reply #14 on:** April 22, 2007, 10:44:12 AM »

My understanding (generically) is that the current generation of GPU's handle a significant amount of these issues on the VC. The application is being run on the CPU. The rendering is being done on the GPU. AH is historically a CPU dependent application, the bottleneck in "performance" comes at the CPU. Modern day GPU's are not utilized at anything near full potential (in most cases). There are in fact programs looking to offload more and more true calculations from the CPU to GPU (one premise in an odd way of the Sony cell). One example would be a falling plane part. The game has to calculate the fluttering control surface (you can watch it all the way down till it hits the ground BTW) for all players. You wont see it unless you orient your in game view the same way....but the math still runs. Now your "view" dictates what your GPU renders and your FR dictates how often it renders....but these are primarily GPU cycles. The entire purpose of the memory and computing horsepower {VC} is to transfer the burden of rendering from the CPU to the GPU. The GPU itself free's up the CPU cycles. A current generation card is often left waiting for the CPU....it renders faster then the CPU calculates. Your "issues" have nothing to do with CPU cycles (or GPU cycles) but are related to the interaction of various proccesses running on your computer.