High Altitude woes for the Luftwaffe

[Viking]

No, but the 51s would benefit greatly from the +22.something boost.

[1K3]

who would ever want to take the P38 at very high alts.............

[Brooke]

Originally posted by Widewing
You never have to worry about that... My job is to teach and encourage people, not rag on them. Besides, it's not a duel, it's familiarization training. No expectations, no smack talk, just an opportunity to fly and have fun and learn something about the aircraft and the flight model.

My regards,

Widewing

I've gone into the dueling area with Widewing before, and he is very courteous and a nice person -- an asset to the Aces High community.

[Viking]

I have no doubt.

[Bruno]

The 2 Luftwaffe main fighters had both their superchargers set for the altitude at which combat was most likely to take place. It wasn't at 30k. It is true that the LW desired to improve high altitude performance but this wasn't so they could 'dogfight' at 30k.

Despite the myths in this thread and the ones in the CT forums not all bombers flew at 'high altitudes'. Bomber boxes were stacked up high, mid, low and then the bomber streams were strung out sometimes over hundreds of miles. They came into target at staggered at heights and directions to confuse German FLAK gunners. Some really low, some much higher.

The LW had radar, they had ground observers. they had a command and control system that allowed the lesser defended areas of the bomber streams to be identified and attacked. Even very late in the war LW fighters were able to engage and destroy large numbers of bombers.

The quest by the LW to improve high altitude performance wasn't due solely on 'high altitude combat'. It was to get their smaller number of fighters up higher, or co-altitude, so that if engage by superior allied fighter strength they could 'get away' not 'fight to death' like we do in games like AH.

If Pyro or HT (or whoever) is developing the mission 'coad' doesn't recognize this then the CT will suck. However, from all indications they have made it clear that folks will need to stay in formation, fly their flight plan as written etc... Example - if your bomber group is sent into target at 21k you can't run off on your own to 30k etc...

So if you expect a lot of 'high altitude fighting' you maybe in for a shock to find the fights being more representative of real life combat rather then the myth of Ami super planes at 30k smacking down LW 'pigs'.

Even those high altitude fights will only remain at 'high altitude' if both combatants accommodate each other. All the high altitude 'training' you will need is to be able to dive and run to lower altitudes with out damaging your aircraft or giving up your 6.

[Serenity]

Originally posted by Bruno
Even those high altitude fights will only remain at 'high altitude' if both combatants accommodate each other. All the high altitude 'training' you will need is to be able to dive and run to lower altitudes with out damaging your aircraft or giving up your 6.

I agree completely, especially with this last point. I was in a Bf-109 G-14 just minutes ago, at altitudes higher than my aircraft was desgined for, and when another aircraft, that performed better (It seemed) at those altitudes, all i did was a full-power with WEP dive about 22,000 feet to the deck, where I quickly dominated him. So long as the pilot knows his aircraft and learns to fly it to its best, I dont think this will be much of a problem as far as fighter-vs-fighter. The only issue would be, I think FvB fights. However, from the reading ive done the Luftwaffe was famous for attacking head on, guns blazing, doing as much damage as possible, then doing a slpit-ess to the deck to get out alive. (I remember that detail because it was credited for making kill records confusing, as gunners couldnt always tell if the aircraft was stricken or just running). Honestly, I think the Luftwaffe will be able to hold its own. Getting some new high altitude aircraft would be very good, but for the first tour, skilled pilots should be able to hold their own. Remember, the Luftwaffe didnt struggle so much with lack of technology as lack of pilots. And I think in Aces High, (If the squad names are anything to go by) we will have no problems getting an abundance of Luftwaffe pilots. I look foreward to climbing into my Bf-109...

[zorstorer]

Originally posted by Serenity
I...all i did was a full-power with WEP dive about 22,000 feet to the deck, where I quickly dominated him...

But in CT that would be at least some of the "win" requirements for the US side, and lead to some of the "lose" conditions for the Germans.

So while you are correct, the LW will still have to fight the bomber stream, killing US fighters wont matter much in the victory conditions.

My 2 cents anyway

[Viking]

The thing is ... if the US fighter manages to force the German to dive it is a tactical victory to the US fighter. However, if the US fighter follows the German down, or is occupied long enough/dragged away from the bombers, it is a tactical victory for the German. The latter was what the Germans were trying to do with their 109 escorts, allowing the bomber destroyers to attack the bomber formations a couple of times with little or no interference from the US escorts.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Bruno

Despite the myths in this thread and the ones in the CT forums not all bombers flew at 'high altitudes'. Bomber boxes were stacked up high, mid, low and then the bomber streams were strung out sometimes over hundreds of miles. They came into target at staggered at heights and directions to confuse German FLAK gunners. Some really low, some much higher.

(snip)

Even those high altitude fights will only remain at 'high altitude' if both combatants accommodate each other. All the high altitude 'training' you will need is to be able to dive and run to lower altitudes with out damaging your aircraft or giving up your 6.

May I suggest a very useful book. The Mighty Eighth War Manual by Roger Freeman.

This goes into detail about bomber formations and altitude stagger. Typically, a box was staggered no more than 1,000 feet from high to low. The book also defines the standard operating altitudes. The 8th AF didn't fly bomber streams like the RAF did. There were not hundreds of miles between leading and trailing units. This is even more true early in the bomber campaign.

The goal of protecting the bombers is met if the escorts force the German fighters to dive away.

My regards,

Widewing

[Bruno]

I have that book - it doesn't counter anything I wrote.

The 1000 meters (actually 1000 to 3000) deal with the stacking up a single box. The bomber stream consisted of many boxes. These boxes were stacked along the  stream at differing attitudes to keep flak gunners from zeroing in on the entire formation.

The US did this not just the British...

7 July 1944.

That day a force of 1,129 Fortresses and Liberators of the US Eighth Air Force set out from England to bomb aircraft factories in the Leipzig area and the synthetic oil plants at Boehlen, Leuna-Merseburg and Lutzgendorf. The AGO Focke Wulf works in Oschersleben were a particular target for the bombers even now as the emphasis of the bombing war was switching to the destruction of oil production centres. At about eight o'clock that morning the initial  Luftlagemeldung ( air situation report ) was received in the 'Heimatflakbatterien' in Magdeburg. The Würzburg-Riesen ( long range radar ) had detected large air movements over East Anglia. As the bomber formations droned into Germany Alarmstufe 1 ( alert ) was given to all flak batteries and as the bombers approached the Münster-Osnabruck area the civil population was warned and smoke pots on the ground began to generate smoke screens over potential targets.Luftflotte Reich gave the order for the defending fighters to assemble over Magdeburg.

It was a beautifully clear day. Dense condensation trails could be seen up in the stratosphere . There was a continuous deep roaring of the bomber formations. The bombers by-passed the intense flak barrage heading towards the Leipzig area. Further Luftlagemeldungen arrived.

In the air the fighter controller was passing a stream of intercept vectors to Major Walther Dahl , Kommodore JG300, at the head of a Gefechtsverband escorted by Gruppen of JG 300. IV./JG 3 were also airborne. Leading the Fw 190s of his Stabsschwarm west of the intended target Dahl caught sight of his quarry: box after box of bombers heading east. The plan was for the Sturmjäger escorted by sixty Bf109s, to attack the hundred mile long bomber stream at its mid-point. Although the lead and trail bomber formations were heavily escorted, the flanks were covered by small forces making random sweeps.

Major Walter Dahl led his forces in behind a Group of Liberators without any interference from escorts. They were to close to point-blank range before opening fire. Dahl had swung his force in behind the Liberators of the 492nd Bomb Group which, as luck would have it, were temporarily without fighter cover. The Sturmgruppe closed on the American Group's Low Squadron, as Hauptmann Wilhelm Moritz split his force into its three component Sturmstaffeln and directed them against different parts of the enemy formation.

Leutnant Walther Hagenah was one of the German pilots who took part in the attack; " My Staffel was in position about 1,000yd behind 'its' squadron of bombers.The Staffel leader ordered his aircraft into line abreast and, still in close formation, we advanced on the bombers. We were to advance like Frederick the Great's infantrymen, holding our fire until we could see 'the whites of the enemy's eyes'.''

The tactics of the Sturmgruppe were governed by the performance of the wing-mounted 3cm cannon. Although the hexogen high-explosive ammunition fired by this weapon was devastatingly effective, the gun's relatively low muzzle velocity meant that its accuracy fell off rapidly with range . With only 55 rounds per gun, sufficient for about five seconds' firing, the Sturmböcke could not afford to waste ammunition in wild shooting from long range. The sky was alive with a withering hail of defensive fire from the bombers. As the unwieldy fighters slowly advanced on the bombers, the Sturmbock pilots could only grit their teeth until they were right up close against the bombers.

The huge bulk of the radial engine and the heavy armour plate around the cockpit allowed the Sturm force to press on with a certain impunity, as Hagenath remembers " like the armoured knights in the Middle Ages, we were well protected . A Staffel might lose one or two aircraft during the advance, but the rest continued relentlessly on ." Positioned now about 100yd behind the bombers the Staffel leader barked out the order to open fire ' Pauke ! Pauke ! ..'. From such a range the Staffel could hardly miss, and the 3cm explosive rounds struck home . Just 2 rounds could take the tail off a B-17. A B-24's fuselage structure was not as sturdy. The enemy bombers literally fell apart in front of the Sturmgruppe.

Now expand your library and gets some books written by LW pilots who actually engaged bombers and their escort.

Any of the Chronicles by Eric Mombeck (Jagdgeschwader 1, 2, 4, 5 & Sturmstaffel 1 Chronicles).

JG 300. A Chronicle of a Jagdgeschwader in the Battle for Germany. Volume 1: June 1943 to September 1944 by Jean-Yves Lorant and Richard Guyat.

Jagdgeschwader 301/302 'Wild Sau' by Willie Reschke

In almost all those books there's almost no mention of combat above 8000m.

Most is between 5000 and 7000m. Some much lower.

[Widewing]

From Toad's 303rd Bomb Group link... A brief sample of missions.

303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 161
27 May 1944
Target: Railroad marshalling yards, Mannheim, Germany
Crews Dispatched 37
Length of Mission: 6 hours, 45 minutes
Bomb Load: 10 x 500 lb G.P. A.N. M-64 bombs
Bombing Altitudes: Group A - 25,000 ft; Group B - 23,900 ft

303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 187
21 June 1944
City Area, Berlin, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 43
Crews Lost: Lt. Allen, Lt. Way & Lt. Morningstar
Crew Members Lost or Wounded: 5 crewmen were wounded
Length of Mission: 8 hours, 25 minutes
Bomb Load: 8 x 500 lb M17 Incendiary bombs
Bombing Altitudes: 28,400 ft; 27,000 ft & 25,900 ft

303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 194
29 June 1944
Target: Erla Aircraft Components Factory, Heiterblick, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 36
Crews Lost: Lt. Roy, 8 KIA, 1 POW
Length of Mission: 7 hours, 55 minutes
Bomb Load: 10 x 500 lb G.P. M43 bombs
Bombing Altitudes: Group A - 25,000 ft; Group B - 24,000 ft

303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 197
6 July 1944
Target: V-Weapon Sites "No Ball" Target,
Beaumetz-Les-Aires, France
Crews Dispatched: 38
Length of Mission: 4 hours, 25 minutes
Bomb Load: 12 x 500 lb G.P. M43 bombs
Bombing Altitudes: 26,000, 25,100 & 24,500 ft

303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 201
11 July 1944
Target: City area, Munich, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 38
Length of Mission: 8 hours, 50 minutes
Bomb Load: 18 X 250 lb M57 bombs
Bombing Altitudes: Group A - 27,500 ft; Group B - 25,300 ft

303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 213
28 July 1944
Target: Leuna Synthetic Oil Plant, Merseburg, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 37
Length of Mission: 7 hours, 50 minutes
Bomb Load: 10 x 500 lb M43 bombs
Bombing Altitudes: 26,200, 25,200 & 24,200 ft

303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 206
18 July 1944
Target: Experimental V-Rocket Station, Peenemunde, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 39
Length of Mission: 8 hours, 40 minutes
Bomb Load: 10 x 500 lb G.P. M43 bombs
Bombing Altitudes: Group A - 25,100 ft; Group B - 23,300 ft

303rd BG (H) Combat Mission No. 208
20 July 1944
Target: Junkers Flugzeug Motorwerke, Dessau, Germany
Crews Dispatched: 37
Crew Members Killed or Wounded: 2 crewmembers wounded
Length of Mission: 8 hours, 45 minutes
Bomb Load: 10 x 500 lb G.P. & 38 x 100 lb M47 Incendiary bombs
Bombing Altitudes: 26,000, 25,000 & 24,000 ft

Seems to support my statement that the bombers will generally be at 25,000 feet, with the escorts 2,000 to 5,000 feet higher.

If the Luftwaffe is going to engage the bombers, they will have to climb to at least 25k, probably higher.

My regards,

Widewing

[Bruno]

Thanks for proving my point...

They sure staggered more the 1000ft high to low -

Didja bother to read it?

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Well, it looks like the maximum spread was around 2200 feet, not hardly the 1000 meters you claimed. Looks like the lowest flight was at 23000 or above.

[Serenity]

Um, even B-17Gs flew as low as 17,000 feet. In the book about the 303rd, Osprey's "303rd Bombardment Group" crew records said that several times the low squadrons would be between 17,000 and 18,000 feet. It was primarily due to weather, but nonetheless it happened.

[zorstorer]

Lordy folks WW is just trying to give us a look at what it would  be like to fight that high.....NOT that HT has 30k set as the normal bomb run we will see in CT.

Maybe wait for CT to come out before going off about what the standard operation alt was for the bombers and escorts.

WW it has been a good read, thanks for doing it.