Author Topic: Capt. Eric M. Brown at the Norwegian National Aviation Museum 25 April 2007  (Read 2316 times)

Offline Viking

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I had the great honor and pleasure of meeting this true Hero and gentleman this evening at our National Aviation Museum here in Bodø.












Capt. Brown’s presentation was held in one of the museum’s auditoriums.






Capt. Brown was surprisingly fit for his advanced years of 86 and I greatly enjoyed his clear-minded insights and typical British humor.

I recorded the presentation on my digital camera, but unfortunately it can only record 29 minutes at a time, so there are two gaps of about 10 minutes while I was dumping the videos to my laptop.

Each part is about 20 to 30 megabytes and I’m using FileFactory to share the files. When you click on the links you will get to a FileFactory page. On this page you must scroll down and click on the “Download for free with FileFactory Basic” link. You will then get to an advertisement page; watch it or click the “skip ad” button/link. You then get to the anti-bot verification page (with more ads I’m afraid, but hey … that’s how they keep the service free). Type in the numbers/characters as required. You will then (finally) get to download the file by clicking on the “Click here to begin your download” link.

Part 1

Part one starts with Capt. Brown being introduced by a Norwegian veteran whose name I didn’t catch. Capt. Brown then tells us that his presentation will primarily be about the quest for speed from the 1920 up to and beyond the breaking of the sound barrier. He presents some interesting test results and conclusions on the P-38 and P-47 that are bound to be controversial here on this forum.

http://www.filefactory.com/file/8a81d9/

In the ten or so minutes that are missing at the end on Part 1 Capt. Brown told about a dive speed test in the spitfire (flown by another RAE test pilot) where they achieved such a high Mach number that the prop got torn off the airplane along with the reduction gear, and the wings were swept back by the drag to such an extent that there was a 3 inch gap in the leading edge of the wing roots. The pilot was very lucky to make it in one piece, and that speed is till the fastest achieved by a piston engine plane ever. He then went on to the start of the jet-age with the German prototypes of the late 1930’s as we start Part 2.


Part 2

http://www.filefactory.com/file/142ffe/

After Part 2 there was a coffee break and I took the opportunity to dump the video from the camera’s memory.

Part 3

http://www.filefactory.com/file/a1a109/

What Capt. Brown was saying at the end when the video cut off was that the German wind tunnel amazingly had an airstream speed of more than Mach 4 … during WWII (!)

He then went on about how a German aerodynamicist in the 1930’s held a lecture in Italy on the advantages of sweeping back the wings, and that the same person (IIRC) after the war also came up with the delta plan form being the best for supersonic flight. This influenced the British and French in their design of the Concorde. He then finished his presentation with the history of the Concord.

In part 4 he is taking questions (uttered by us Norwegians in horribly broken English), and with my camera’s typical bad timing we start Part 4 in the middle of the answer to the first question. The question was something to the effect of “what's your favorite plane?” - To which he answered that it was the DeHavilan Hornet, and we continue in Part 4.

(Many interesting questions and answers, including the classic Me 262 vs. Gloster Meteor debate we’ve had so often here on the forum.)

Part 4

http://www.filefactory.com/file/0b9811/

We end Part 4 with the last question he accepted and he ended by saying he mostly flew helicopters at the end of his carrier, and that the last time he flew (as the pilot) was in 1994.

Thank you Captain Eric M. Brown for sharing your thoughts, insights and the experiences of your amazing career and life! <>



Now, let’s have a friendly debate on the points and opinions he presented shall we? I’ll let someone else start as I don’t want to give away anything before people have had a chance to view Capt. Brown’s presentation.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2007, 08:51:28 PM by Viking »

Offline Brooke

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Thank you very much for making this available to us!  Also, that is a beautiful area and museum you have!

I'll jump in with one of the controversial things we can discuss for fun.

One of the things Mr. Brown talked about tactical mach numbers and how the 109 and 190 had higher tactical mach numbers (at about 0.75) than did the P-38 (0.68) and P-47 (0.71).  He thus concluded that the P-38 and P-47 were not usable against 109's and 190's at high escort altitudes (where it is easier to reach tactical mach speeds) but that the P-51 was usable because it had a higher tactical mach number (at 0.78) than did the German planes.

The thing is, though, there are many factors in addition to tactical mach numbers that come into play (top speed, roll rates at speed, etc.), especially since planes only reach the tactical mach number during substantial dives and can't maintain such a high speed -- they all have to slow down at some point.  So, it depends how bad the tactical mach number is.  The P-38 clearly had problems diving after 109's and 190's.  However, P-47 pilots generally didn't hesitate to dive after 109's and 190's and didn't seem to notice that they were at a disadvantage doing so.  Also, the P-47 was the main escort fighter during the period before the USAAF gained huge numerical superiority over the LW, whereas the P-51 started appearing in numbers after the LW was already in bad shape in this regard.  It seems the P-47 acquitted itself well against the 109 and 190.

Offline Viking

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The P-38 and surprisingly also the P-47 had a tendency to break apart in compressibility dives. Not until the addition of dive flaps (on both the P-38 and the P-47) was this problem fixed. However these weaknesses are not modeled in the game.

From p-38online.com:

"Kelly Johnson would issue a report early in 1942. In the "Study of Diving Characteristics of the P-38", Johnson would state that at a critical airspeed, which varies in altitude, a certain condition exists which causes problems with the airflow. The airflow over the surface area of the wings would separate to produce a special form of stall. At higher speeds, flow separation spreads over the upper surface, and the aircraft tends to be nose-heavy due to a shift in the center of lift. This caused a loss of pitch control. Lockheed engineer Phil Coleman originally specified a dive test plan as early as 1940. He stated that vertical dives should be initiated at 35,000 at modest power settings. The dive would continue until reaching a constant speed at 16,000 ft., and would continue until 13,000 ft. The pilot would then execute a 3 - 4 'g' pullout. The pullout should be completed at 7,000 ft., and should never exceed 570 mph.

Most early combat operational models would suffer from the compressibility problem. However, the problem was not experienced in all theaters of operation. The P-38 did not have compressibility issues while operating in India, the Mediterranean, or in the Pacific. This was primarily due to the nature of combat. In these areas, combat rarely took place above 25,000 ft., and compressibility would not occur if a dive was initiated below 25,000 ft. In Europe, combat operations were normally conducted at high altitudes. Soon, German pilots knew if they were in a bad situation, they could easily dive to safety. The P-38 would be able to dive faster than German fighters, but P-38 pilots were probably more scared of a high-speed dive than enemy fighters.

After extensive testing, the answer to the problem was the use of a dive flap (or brakes). These flaps would be attached to the main spar under the wing. This would offset the loss in lift while in high-speed dives, and would allow the pilot to remain in control throughout the dive. Test pilots Tony Levier and Milo Bircham began a series of dive tests with the flaps. Lt. Benjamin Kelsey was sent by the Air Corps to evaluate the progress of the dive flaps. He took the modified P-38 and proceeded to enter the dive. He had problems engaging the flap as he was beginning his dive. While in the dive, he experienced normal compressibility problems because the flaps were not activated, and the violent thrusts sheared the tail off from the main structure. Kelsey was able to bail out and only sustained a broken ankle. The aircraft was totally destroyed. Another test P-38 would not be fitted with dive flaps for a few months.

Finally, another test P-38 was fitted with the dive flaps and testing was resumed. The Air Corps wanted Lockheed to test the aircraft with 2,000 lbs. of more weight and to start dives at 35,000 ft. The extra weight would cause additional acceleration of the aircraft during its dive, and would approach the critical Mach number sooner. This would be even more hazardous than before. Levier and Bircham resumed testing and would start at a 45-degree dive, and increase each test dive an additional 5-degree until they encountered problems. Levier was the first to encounter problem while using the dive flap. He was in a 60-degree dive, and began having problems when we reached 31,000 ft. The aircraft began to get away from him, even with the flaps deployed. Levier was fighting the aircraft to prevent it from tucking under itself as if it were in a regular dive. He decided to ride it out to see what would happen. He began his recovery at 20,000 ft., but he would not really begin to regain control until he was at 13,000 ft. The instruments registering the strain on the airframe were all over the 100% limit load. Bircham eased it back to the base without putting further stress on the aircraft. This was the evidence they needed to prove the flaps would hold up under an extreme dive, and not lead to disaster like many P-38s prior.”

Offline Nilsen

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Viking..

Isnt he the guy who has been in several Discovery Channel shows?

Offline Furball

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Wow.. had never heard of that Museum before...

Looks fantastic!
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
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Offline Viking

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Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
Viking..

Isnt he the guy who has been in several Discovery Channel shows?


Yes he has been interviewed for many Discovery shows. He also wrote the "Viewed from the cockpit" column in AIR International for God knows how many years. I enjoyed those immensely as a kid.

Offline Viking

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Quote
Originally posted by Furball
Wow.. had never heard of that Museum before...

Looks fantastic!


It is, to me anyways. I haven't been to the big museums in the UK or USA, so I can't really compare it to anything. Well worth visiting if you happen to be in the area.

Offline Nilsen

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Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Well worth visiting if you happen to be in the area.


like anyone ever "happens to be" in that area :D

Offline Viking

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LOL! Actually some do. Since Hurtigruta stops here for a couple of hours on its way north. Plenty of tourists stop by the museum in the summer. When I drove a taxi 6 years ago I picked up a German couple at the museum and drove them to the Hurtigrute pier. During the drive they almost fell over themselves apologizing for the war. I think the section about the bombing of Bodø got to them a little. I still remember the wife trying to translate into English her hustbands words: “Unschuldigen für der Deutsche überfall aus Norwegen“ or something very similar. :D  I felt sorry for them.

Offline Knegel

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Hii,

i never did hear that the P47 felt appart in a highspeed dive!!

The mach08 dives with the P47D-30 show that there wasnt a tendency to fall appart. The dive flaps did help to slow down and get the nose up again, but not to keep the plane together.

It may be the P47 was able to reach speed above mach 0.8, where the structure of every plane get under presure, but i never did read about a damaged P47 due to the speed itself.

Eric Brown did fly many planes and his experience is big, but i always have the feeling his statements are often more his opinion, based on knowledge gained by reading, than by his own experiences.
I did read some of his books, but there are rarely proofs for his statements included, while he always write like its absolut true.

Imho he often make to fast and not safe conclusions, selled as truth!!

On the other hand its always a joy to read what he write(at least for me).

I hope he will get some years more!!

Unfortunately my connection is very slow so it will need some time to get the videos, thanks for sharing this!!!

Greetings,

Knegel

Offline Trikky

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Capt. Eric M. Brown at the Norwegian National Aviation Museum 25 April 2007
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2007, 03:19:35 AM »
Thanks for posting, it was worth it just for the 'I flew the Me163 once, and believe you me, once was enough' line.

I was suprised by the tactical mach figures, everything allied seems faster at that height so how do you get to use the advantage?

Offline Viking

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Capt. Eric M. Brown at the Norwegian National Aviation Museum 25 April 2007
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2007, 04:00:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Knegel
i never did hear that the P47 felt appart in a highspeed dive!!
 


The early models literally shook apart in the heavy buffeting. Completely out of control. Also the P-38 had a tendency to lose its tail section in compression dives.

Quote
Originally posted by Knegel
The mach08 dives with the P47D-30 show that there wasnt a tendency to fall appart. The dive flaps did help to slow down and get the nose up again, but not to keep the plane together.
 


The P-47D model got modified with each production batch to improve dive handling, the D-30 also getting the dive flaps. While the dive flaps did increase drag they were not dive-brakes. They increased lift to avoid the plane’s tendency to “tuck under” into a vertical “graveyard” dive and also helped pilots in pulling out of dives. When approaching compression the wings would lose lift due to the shockwaves forming at the leading edge thus nosing the plane down out of control. They would literally fall out of the sky.

Offline hogenbor

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Capt. Eric M. Brown at the Norwegian National Aviation Museum 25 April 2007
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2007, 11:21:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Knegel


Eric Brown did fly many planes and his experience is big, but i always have the feeling his statements are often more his opinion, based on knowledge gained by reading, than by his own experiences.
I did read some of his books, but there are rarely proofs for his statements included, while he always write like its absolut true.



The man is an ex-combat and test pilot and holds the world record for types of aircraft flown and for carrier landings. Furthermore, he survived. Reading his books gives me an overwhelming sense of a pilot with an analytical mind. A test pilot MUST be able to quantify his statements and is also in a position to directly compare aircraft. Biased as biased may be, but I rate his judgement extremely highly.

I do not know if he has flown the P-47 and if so, to its extremes. The limitation on mach numbers is correct, if I am to believe my limited library. On the other hand, I never heard of P-47's being unable to follow/catch 109s and 190s. If I ever get the opportunity to ask him about the P-47, I will.

Offline Charge

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Capt. Eric M. Brown at the Norwegian National Aviation Museum 25 April 2007
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2007, 12:23:34 PM »
Really nice looking collection of planes, it would be nice to visit there sometime as it is not too far away.

-C+
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Offline Angus

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Capt. Eric M. Brown at the Norwegian National Aviation Museum 25 April 2007
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2007, 01:22:43 PM »
Very very very nice! Thanks!
That museum looks great! And of course I also envy you to death for meeting mr.Brown.
Regarding the dive speeds, the P47 was indeed claimed as a very fast diver, - pilots like Rall claim that nothing dove faster. I still wonder if the "word" rather relates to initial dive speed, and then the performance of the late P47's.
Tony Jonsson claimed that the P51 would dive with the P-47, and perhaps even better. Now bar in mind that some of those guys flew (and dived) like...nuts.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)