Author Topic: Phantom P-38  (Read 1229 times)

Offline wooly15

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Phantom P-38
« on: April 25, 2007, 09:48:31 PM »
I found this on some other forum.  Anyone else ever heard this story?

One of the more interesting stories in the MTO was of the phantom P-38, which was causing trouble for many crippled bombers. Beginning on June 4, 1943, a crippled bomber was coming back from a mission against the island of Pantelleria. The crew was considering bailing out of their bomber when they spotted a P-38 coming closer. They immediately relaxed knowing it was coming to their aid. The crew continued to dump extra weight from the aircraft, including the guns and ammunition. Before the crew realized what happened, the P-38 erupted in gunfire and destroyed the B-17. The only survivor was the pilot, Lt. Harold Fisher. Fisher was rescued and was the target of fury from the fighter pilots by suggesting it was a friendly P-38 that shot them down.

Several weeks before Lt. Fisher's ordeal, a P-38 pilot was low on fuel and was lost. He actually made an emergency landing just outside of Sardinia. The pilot was captured before he was able to destroy his aircraft. Italian pilot, Lt. Guido Rossi came up with the idea of using this P-38 against the American bombers. Rossi's strategy was to wait until the bombers made their attacks. Rossi would then take off and scout around for stragglers. He actually used this technique to shoot down several bombers. Until Lt. Fisher, no other crews survived to tell of the P-38 shooting them down. The American commanders were under the assumption that these missing bombers just did not make it back just as many before them. Nobody thought a friendly aircraft was the cause.

After Fisher told his story, bombers crews were alerted to look for a lone P-38, which was posing as a friendly. Fisher came up with the idea of using a decoy B-17 to attract Rossi. Fisher's idea was approved and he took off in the experimental YB-40 gunship. This was simply a modified B-17, which had more armor and guns. He flew several missions lagging behind the rest of the formations, but never encountered Rossi. Intelligence was being gathered and the Allies finally learned the identity of the pilot. They also learned that his wife was living in Allied occupied Constantine. An artist actually used a picture of his wife to paint a nose art picture on Fisher's bomber, and included her name, Gina. On August 31, a B-17 raid struck Pisa. Fisher was flying among the bombers, and was actually damaged by enemy fighters. He recovered at a low altitude and had to feather two engines. Before long, a lone P-38 was approaching and the crew was on high alert. Rossi, using very good English, contacted Fisher, just as he did on previous occasions. Rossi immediately noticed the nose art on the aircraft and spoke with Fisher. Fisher was still uncertain the pilot was Rossi and was chatting with Rossi normally. Fisher decided to bait this pilot to see if it was Rossi or not, and began talking about Gina and her location in Constantine. When Fisher was describing intimate details of their "relationship", Rossi lost his cool. He peeled off and began his attack. Fisher ordered all guns to open up on this P-38, and Rossi had to peel off trailing smoke. Rossi intended to ram the bomber, but began breaking up and could not maintain flight. He was able to ditch in the water and survived. Rossi was later picked up and taken prisoner. Fisher was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross medal for his efforts. Fisher would survive the war, but was killed in a transport accident during the Berlin Airlift. Incidentally, Rossi was one of the mourners at his funeral.

Offline Viking

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Phantom P-38
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2007, 10:01:07 PM »
Sounds almost incredible :confused:

Offline SgtPappy

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Phantom P-38
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2007, 10:02:32 PM »
ah yes the classic phantom P-38 story.. can't get enough of that read lol
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Phantom P-38
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2007, 10:13:23 PM »
Bogus.

Makes a good story though.
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Offline Husky01

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Phantom P-38
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2007, 10:30:58 PM »
:O :O :O :O
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Offline Widewing

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Phantom P-38
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2007, 11:34:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Bogus.

Makes a good story though.


Yeah, Martin Caidin's blending of fiction and fact. This one is generally regarded as mostly fiction.

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Widewing
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Offline Saxman

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Phantom P-38
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2007, 07:30:25 AM »
I personally happen to like this one:

http://www.combatsim.com/htm/nov99/p51-hard.htm
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Offline LancerVT

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Phantom P-38
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2007, 08:45:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
I personally happen to like this one:

http://www.combatsim.com/htm/nov99/p51-hard.htm


My favorite part is:

"'My first victory wasn't a kill; it was more of a suicide.'"

haha
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Phantom P-38
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2007, 12:28:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
Yeah, Martin Caidin's blending of fiction and fact. This one is generally regarded as mostly fiction.

My regards,

Widewing


Isn't that P-38 supposedly used by Rossi the one that Axis forces got when a US pilot defected or did the US pilot ditch and that's how the Axis forces got the P-38?


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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Phantom P-38
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2007, 01:43:44 PM »
At least one P-38 ended up staying in Portugal, because a guy from Ilfrey's squadron was landing as Ilfrey was escaping. But Portugal was neutral, so it was just interred.

As I recall, the Italians did have a P-38 that they captured intact because the pilot landed it bingo fuel and did not get it burning before he was captured. Not knowing how to actually fly it or maintain it, they soon screwed up more than they could fix, and of course, they didn't have any spare parts.

As an aside, Captain Stan Richardson Jr told me that he was once attacked by a P-47, in German markings, and had a brief fight with it in his P-38. Evidently, another pilot from his group was attacked by a Spitfire in German markings as well.

Given that the P-38 groups weren't doing so well with engine and fuel management early on, and that they evidently lost a fair number of P-38's due to them not having fuel to get home, I'd say the Germans may have been able to grab a few that ran out of fuel and ditched. After enough get ditched and salvaged, you have enough to make one or two fly again.
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Offline SKJohn

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Phantom P-38
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2007, 02:01:45 PM »
About Oct '04 (Vol. 40 #9) Air Classics had a story about the only USAAF pilot that defected during the war.
Apparently Lt. Monti was a hard-core catholic who wanted to fight communists, and figured the way to that was to go to the German eastern front.  In October '44, he flew a P-38 (F-5E) to the German held area near Milan and landed.  Told Germans what he wanted to do - they thought he was either a whack-job or a spy and locked him up 'til the end of the war.
After the war, the US tried him as a traitor, but his former captors testified that he never gave away US secrets or spoke illof his county - just wnated to fight communists.  H was found not guilty and stayed in the air force until 1948.  When he got out, the FBI arrestesd him based on information that the had aided the Germans with propaganda radio broadcasts.  He was given 28 years in prison - got out in 1977.

The article has several pics of the P-38 in Luftwaffe markings - talk about something that looks out of place!  No mention of it being used to attack US planes - just used in the role of letting Luftwaffe pilots fly it to get a feel for what the enemy a/c were capable of.

Offline Guppy35

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Phantom P-38
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2007, 11:48:32 PM »
Italians had one P38G that was landed on Sicily by a lost P38 pilot.  

On August 11, 1943 and Italian pilot named Tondi, intercepted B17s of the 301st BG and shot down one in the P38.  The P38 was riddled with return fire.  It was the only time the 38 claimed an American aircraft.  It was flown a few more times but lack of spares and the synthetic German fuel eating through the self sealing fuel tanks, caused it to be grounded.

Caiden as a historian writes great fiction :)
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Phantom P-38
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2007, 01:30:37 AM »
So what is the story with this Monti guy?  


ack-ack
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Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2007, 11:02:31 AM »
Who cares.

If i see him in hell, i will spend a good amount of time kickin' his bellybutton in the afterlife.
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Offline Guppy35

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Phantom P-38
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2007, 11:42:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
So what is the story with this Monti guy?  


ack-ack


Bits and pieces I've found over the years when trying to know what the story was:

In brief, however, Lt. Monti fled from his unit in India and managed to reach Southern Italy. There, after having tried unsuccessfully to become a member of the 82nd Fighter Group, wandered for a few days, finally reaching an airfield near Naples where, faking to be a test pilot, managed to take-off with a brand new F-5E (a reconnaissance version of the P-38). He flew up to Milan, where he landed at Bresso airfield and surrendered in the hands of the Germans. The plane was later brought to Germany, while Lt. Monti was officially captured, reappearing only after the end of the war again in Milan! This time he reported to have managed to evade from a concentration camp in Germany, having reached the Italian border partly by foot and by train and finally reaching Milan. Nonetheless, he was soon identified and arrested. Submitted to military trial, he managed to convince the tribunal that he had taken off only to see "how the front-line looked like", become lost and then baled out from the F-5E with no more fuel, that he had been captured, imprisoned and escaped at his third attempt. He was sentenced to 15 years of imprisonement. After the war however, it was discovered that after his "capture" he had instead served with the Germans and that he had also been enrolled in the SS and had been a speaker of the German radio propaganda with the name of Martin Weithaupt. He was then arrested again for treason and sentenced to 25 years (only because he declared himself giulty of treason, the only U.S. citizen who ever confessed this crime). He was finally released in 1968.


Martin James Monti aka Martin Weithaupt Part Five of Five 8/19/48 Attorney General requested of the Department of the Army to transport 30 named witnesses to Washington, D.C. not later than 9/7/48. 12/8/48 Monti was committed to the Kings County Hospital of the City of New York for a mental examination by Gladys McDermaid M.D., Senior Psychiatrist, who concluded that, Monti was extremely narcissistic, immature, obsessive-compulsive person who has developed attitudes of superiority and hostility towards people as a self-protective device against inner feelings of inadequacy, emotional conflicts over homosexual strivings and inability to establish ego-identification at an adult male level. His religious and political fanaticism, his highly moralistic concepts and attitudes of racial superiority, conflict with primitive and sadistic impulses that he fears and attempts to control. On intelligence tests, Monti was classified as of superior intellugancem with an IQ of 131 on verbal, and 120 on performance material. Diagnosis is recorded as: No psychosis; not Mental Defective; Psychopathis Personality; paranoid and Obsessive- Compulsive Features. 1/17/49 Day of Monti's treason trial. Monti withdrew his not guility plea. The prosecution would not accept the plea without a complete and full confession under oath, and examined by Mr. Woerheide, the prosecutions attorney. Initially, Monti would not give a straight answer when Mr. Woerheide asked the Judge that the trial begin, that the defendant is not complying at all with the questions. Monti finally answered all questions put to him, over 150 of them. (I would imagine the thought of the 30 witnesses waiting in the side room might have had something to do with this.) Also Best and Chandler got Life imprisonment with out the chance of Parole. Both died in prison. The court accepted Monti's plea of guilty. Monti's attorney, Lloyd Paul Stryker, (also represented Alger Hiss) and Harold Shapiro was also present, moved foe an arrest of judgment on the grounds that the treasonous acts occurred on enemy territory, and that the Court didn't have jurisdiction since the U.S. Constitution guarantees that all crimes be tried in the "State" were they occurred, i.e., Germany, not the U.S. He also pleaded double jeopardy. The Judge denied all motions. The Judge sentenced Monti to 25 years confinement and a fine of $10,000. The Justice Department told reporters that Monti is the only American citizen who has ever confessed to the crime of treason. Monti spent 28 years in Leavenworth Federal Penitentiary. His sentenced was extended for breaking into the mess hall kitchen, with a number of other prisoners and stealing food. He was finally released in 1968.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2007, 11:48:03 AM by Guppy35 »
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