Let me play Devils advocate here...

[vorticon]

Originally posted by john9001
the starting wage at lowes/home depot is $8.50 per hour, i see lots of americans working there.

home depot is air-conditioned

"You confuse the word "Hard" with "Difficult.""


don't think i am. nothing difficult about packing forms, but it is hard work. same goes for landscaping...

[FrodeMk3]

Lazersailor, I say this for 2 reasons:

I live in California's San Jualquin valley. It's mainly a farming industry here. As a result, It's attracted migrant laborer's for decades. Many of them don't even get Minimum wage(What's an illegal alien gonna do? Tell the authorities?) and they live 2-3 families in a single wide mobile home. That's because rents have gotten so high that they chip in to live as cheaply as possible. You can't even rent apartments around here for less than 1000$ a month anymore, due to the real estate market's boom. They've infested the rural towns around here to the point that all of the Main street businesses' in the smaller ones have all of their signs in spanish.

Oh, should I mention...

I guess that harvesting the cotton for your clothes, and the food on your dinner plate, are jobs not worth the "Living wage"?

I will give you this. The income necessary to maintain a certain standard of living varies from State to state, and also changes from rural to urban. California's Pretty expensive in places like the L.A. basin or up in the Bay area. McDonald's will put ads in the paper for people to start at almost 11$ an hour. So the "Living Wage" in one area might not be the same as say, rural Idaho.

[lasersailor184]

I'm not the one who should determine what jobs are worth.  Neither are you.

The market determines that.


I did have a post written that would have pre-empted your comment, however I didn't like how it was worded and chose not to post it.

By the huge influx of illegal workers, and because more come in every day, the cause of their low wage is themselves.  

Out of everyone in America who is truly earning what they should get paid, it is the illegal workers.  There are a lot of illegal migrant workers, and since the laws don't apply to them, they truly work for how much supply and demand dictates that they should work for, and not some minimum wage law.

They are screwing themselves.  And you want me to feel sympathetic for them?


If we were to kick all of the illegals out.  And I mean kick them all out under threat of death if they were to return illegally, then there would be a much smaller work force of the actual unemployed legal americans.  The business men (due to the laws of supply and demand) would be forced to pay more to attract people to the jobs that the illegals had.

Then the unemployed would have money, they would spend it, and everything would be better.

[x0847Marine]

On average, I wonder, what % of people in general are prone to be pedophiles, rapists, child kidnappers.. sexual reprobates. Lets say .5%. Thats, uh, quite a few perverts when we are talking about 20 million people (illegals).

Now how many US citizens get the ole unwanted alien probe?, only this alien smells like Budweiser, vomit, urine and body odor.

Its always nice to know your govt spent billions to fail 20 million times though... WTG dot gov!

Edit: I was NOT referring to "rape", but an "undocumented sex act"

[Toad]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
If we were to kick all of the illegals out.  And I mean kick them all out under threat of death if they were to return illegally, then there would be a much smaller work force of the actual unemployed legal americans.  The business men (due to the laws of supply and demand) would be forced to pay more to attract people to the jobs that the illegals had.

Then the unemployed would have money, they would spend it, and everything would be better.

Except of course that the market would not be operating in a normal fashion. The market would be skewed by those pesky immigration laws, Federal work standards (OSHA, for instance), tax breaks/perks, etc., etc., etc.

Cod, the market would be skewed by the Feds mandating a 40 hour week with overtime after that! Imagine.

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by john9001
they are called "coyotes" not gophers.

I thought a coyote was an older woman picking up younger men in a bar?


As to the original post.  Get used to it folks.  Hispanics are now the leading minority group in the U.S. of A.  They are organizing.  They are growing (both due to immigration - legal and otherwise, and they tend toward larger families on average).  Within many of our lifetimes, their numbers will come close to matching those of white European decedents in the United States.  No sense getting mad or indignant, or taking on racists positions: it is happening.  Period.

Hispanics are learning they have political power and are flexing their muscles. The days of Black Power have given way to Brown Power (with Asians as a whole warming up in the bullpen to take the #2 spot for themselves).  Sorry to say, but all indications so far are that the Hispanics may prove much more successful with their new found political power than the Blacks did as well.
Politicians that can read demographic reports are doing their best to get into their good graces.  Politicians are courting the Hispanic vote.  Politicians whose sole base are mid-western, conservative whites are going down, clawing away tooth and nail.... but they will lose eventually.  Latino Power numbers are growing fast: it is Juggernaut.  

This whole issue has a lot less to do with immigration than it does curring favor with, and developing the political power block of, the largest (and growing) minority block in the United States.


And once again, I find myself a moderate.  I've no problem in converting illegal immigrants already living and working in this country to legal status though some process.  But, I'd also like to see a non-porous southern (and northern) border.  Then, there's the idea of forming American Foreign Legions too along the lines of the French model, I could support.  
(Then again, I'd like to see legalized drugs --- I wouldn't use myself as there is no attraction there for me, but better to regulate and tax drugs and offer treatment programs than continue to support a failed war on drugs and associated crimes and burgeoning prison system with my tax dollars.  OD's are just Darwinism in action).


Now......where did I put that asbestos suit from my "reeky.moto" days...... i may need it.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
And that landscaping company would probably go out of business if it had to pay $12 or $13 an hour.

The federal program you mentioned is one of the ways that can be used to curb illegal immigration but I guess that's not as fun as talking all macho about blowing up and killing people of which the majority are just looking to better themselves and their families.


ack-ack

Sems to me they used to use teenage kids in the old days.
Now adults have even taken over paper routes.
They can find labor here if they want to bad enough. And for less then $12 an hour too.

Talking Macho about killing people just looking for a better life?
I have absolutly no problem with anyone who comes here using a LEGAL means.
Hell I'd even go out of my way to help the ones here legally

BUT I have absolutely ZERO compassion for anyone comming here illegally reagardless the purity of their intent. None,nada,zip,zilch.
If they drown crossing the river,have a tunnel collapse on them, get roasted by the sun trying to trek across the desert.
Well. too bad,so sad. sucks to be them.
Dont do it illegally and you dont have that problem

Someone ask whats anyone doing?
Im doing my part. I've actually called immigration officials on those whom I known to be illegal. and have started turning in businesses whom I know to hire illegals.
Illegals and their employers have only a pure enemy in me

But all I can do is make the phone calls.
Our government hasnt issued any hunting permits yet for shooting illegals so Im guessing they would frown upon the activity of shooting wetbacks out of season.
So I cant do that.

But if ever comes the day....

[FrodeMk3]

Ummm...doesn't this:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Did you ever stop to think that maybe the work that these people doing isn't worth the "Living Wage"? And that we shouldn't force the businesses to pay for their services more then they are worth?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sorta contradict this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
origanally posted by lazersailor184
I'm not the one who should determine what jobs are worth. Neither are you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, we could Hijack the thread and argue wether or not farm, landscape and foodservice industry workers are underpaid or not all day long. However, I follow you on the issue of Illegal immigration undermining our economy. The real problem is, you have the U.S. Government that does little to nothing about it(Big business lobbying takes a part in that,) And the Mexican government activally encourages and supports it.  The solution to Illegal immigration lies not so much in trying to liquidate anyone who crosses the border...You have to go deeper and get at the root of the problem. That will ultimately mean forcibly changing the Mexican government and economy to be more compliant with the needs of it's people. How that's done, whether a Military coup, uprising of the Mexican people, or Direct U.S. intervention(I'm leaving out elections because they're more corrupt than even the worst U.S. Gov't nightmare) It will have to incorporate a radical change in per household income in Mexico. We are just gonna have to make Mexico a place worth staying, so they'll quit coming up here.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by john9001
the starting wage at lowes/home depot is $8.50 per hour, i see lots of americans working there.

exactly

[ramzey]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
exactly

8.50 you say, lol

https://careers.homedepot.com/cg/content.do?p=benefits

[DREDIOCK]

This
"A new study by the Heritage Foundation's Robert Rector found a household headed by an individual without a high school education, including about two-thirds of illegal aliens, costs U.S. taxpayers more than $32,000 in federal, state and local benefits. That same family contributes an average of $9,000 a year in taxes, resulting in a net tax burden of $22,449 each year.

Over the course of the household's lifetime that tax burden translates to $1.1 million"

Is taken from a different website. but is basically a summary of this
Study done by
The Heritage FoundationThe Fiscal Cost of Low-Skill Households to the U.S. Taxpayer
by Robert E. Rector, Christine Kim and Shanea Watkins, Ph.D.

[ramzey]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
This
"A new study by the Heritage Foundation's Robert Rector found a household headed by an individual without a high school education, including about two-thirds of illegal aliens, costs U.S. taxpayers more than $32,000 in federal, state and local benefits. That same family contributes an average of $9,000 a year in taxes, resulting in a net tax burden of $22,449 each year.

Over the course of the household's lifetime that tax burden translates to $1.1 million"

Is taken from a different website. but is basically a summary of this
Study done by
The Heritage FoundationThe Fiscal Cost of Low-Skill Households to the U.S. Taxpayer
by Robert E. Rector, Christine Kim and Shanea Watkins, Ph.D.

manipulation?
 
there is no single word about illegal aliens in this document, can you point me out where this studies point that?

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by ramzey
8.50 you say, lol

https://careers.homedepot.com/cg/content.do?p=benefits

somehow I think you miss the point.

There are all sorts of jobs (without bennies)you see americans working that do not pay 12-13 per hour

[ramzey]

like? and exactly where?

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by ramzey
manipulation?
 
there is no single word about illegal aliens in this document, can you point me out where this studies point that?

I may have looked at the wrong study. I knew a recetn study had been done But was not sure by whom
in any event
Not "illegal"per sey but

"Changes to immigration policy could have a much larger effect on the fiscal deficits generated by low-skill fam_ilies. Policies which would substantially increase the inflow of low-skill immigrant workers receiving services would dramatically increase the fiscal deficits described in this paper and impose substantial costs on U.S. taxpayers"

and from the same site

"The cost of this illegal activity is almost impossible to nail down, but it’s estimated at around $45 billion a year, and we know that that’s mostly in education, in incarcerating criminals, and health services"
http://www.heritage.org/Research/GovernmentReform/hl924.cfm

And ok from a study by another group

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug25.html
Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.