Originally posted by Gunthr
Please bear with me... I sometimes go off half cocked; I just heard O'Reilly say something about ... "How could we have gone so wrong in Iraq?"
I'm not sure how anyone can conclude that we have gone SO wrong in Iraq. And I don't think anyone is so naive to use body counts as a measure.
I could understand the $ spent as a point. But only as a point to consider.
From day one, I believed that we needed to be in the Middle East, not just to remove Saddam's increasingly dangerous regime, but for the long term presence of a US capabilaty in that region as a matter of national security. I still believe we need to be there. Frankly, I've considered US liberal opinions to be contrary... and only concerned about reelection.
I will be flying this belief in the future... so gather your arguments so that we do not waste each other's time...
Okay: Aside from the issue of going into Iraq in the first place instead of continuing to run al Qaida and their Taliban allies to ground in the countries they fled to from Afghanistan (and have since consolidated in while we've taken the pressure off of them).....like Bangladesh, Indonesia, the Philippians, Pakistan, Yemen, eastern Africa,.... Or what were the actual reasons for going into Iraq vs. the public reasons given........which is a rant for another thread....
#1 Not enough troop commitment to the operation to secure a country the size of Iraq. Billed as a 6 month operation paid for with Iraqi oil... everyone home by Christmas. You do not skimp on troop strength when you need to secure that much territory.
#2 Planning to use the 400,000+ Iraqi military in addition to the police forces to secure the country in addition to American and coalition forces after the fighting. Much effort to get the Iraqi military to stand idle during the invasion.
#3 Firing those 400,000+ Iraqi military and additional police forces after occupying the country. (I personally want those who made this particular blunder of a decision shot, as it led to so many other problems).
#4 Not securing the numerous ammo dumps around the country, or finding all the hiding places that arms and munitions were hid at (hid by some of the 400,000+ military personnel that we had "fired", btw, who we had planned to guard much of it once we occupied).
#5 emphasis on elections and freedom with little to no thought as toward security in the country. Should be pretty evident that without some level of security, holding elections and (que Mr. Gibson) "Freeeedddooommmmm" are not worth a fart in a whirlwind.
#6 Totally misreading the population of Iraq. Thinking that the people of Iraq had the national identity to come together around the campfire and sing cum bay ya together totally disregards the history of the peoples there. (But, that was the State Department's job.... and State sucks balls. If your are a total incompetent, and want to work for the U.S. government: Go State Department.) National identity is not a priority there: tribe, clan, religion, family, mullah, iam,.... most of those people have many other allegiances that come long before the country of Iraq.
#7 With the lack of true national identity, and plenty of old scores to settle among a people who hold grudges for half a millennium on average, with Kurds, Sunni Arabs, Shii'a Arabs, Turkomen, etc, and so forth.... And with Iraq's neighbors certainly not looking forward to a stable Iraq friendly with The Great Satan (despite what Mr. Baker believes in his report), rolling through the quickie microwave super duper Constitution (U.S.A. took 13 years for their Constitution, and they had far less divisiveness amongst them, we expected Iraq to pull this off in 2 years) and the very-weak-compromise-is-everything central government was a total mistake and is a total flop. I don't see anyway to recover from this particular blunder.
We'd have been better off with a strongman, a military junta, reinstalling the King..... But, American arrogance being what it is, and those in charge feeling everyone should model their way on our way, and everyone in a hurry to let freedom ring and then go home....... A strong interim central government to get control of the country, then work on the freedoms and elections for a permanent government comes later.
#8 The Insurgency is just a blip on the radar. (Heck, that was the official line coming down from Division as well while we were taking rounds every day in country.) Those 400,000+ former military types -- the unemployed ones who were led to believe during the assault that they'd keep their jobs if they stood aside to the coalition attack ---- that we fired, and had access to all those munitions..... not to worry.
#9 Three to Four years after the invasion, well, we
still hadn't secured all the munitions sites around the country. Same munitions being converted by some of those 400,000+ unemployed military types into IED's and used against Coalition forces and civilians. The one's responsible for 70% of the injuries and deaths among coalition forces. See points #1 #2 and #3.
#10 Went to war with the Army we had. The one meant to fight the Soviet Union in Europe for the most part. Despite low intensity conflicts and urban fighting becoming the norm since Somalia and Bosnia, the force was still favoring high tech solutions against a massed organized enemy force. Meant very few armored patrol/tactical vehicles and armored cars intended for use in urban environments in the inventory. The convoys and supply trains especially vulnerable where there are no front lines.
#11 Failure to secure the borders (apparently we've never been good at this anywhere we've ever operated. SE Asia, Afghanistan, Mexico.) So, every nut job looking for a ticket to Paradise by killing an infidel in Iraq coming in from Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. Also, more arms and munitions pour in to be used against coalition forces.
#12 Failure to admit to having made any mistakes along the way at any official level. Refusal to change tactics early enough to have made any difference. Arrogance displayed in many of the choices.
Four years in, the sound bites were "Mistakes were made." .... but that is it. Nothing further as to what mistakes they are referring to, so I've got to wonder if THEY know what mistakes they made, and are capable of learning from any of them.
#13 Was there even a plan for after Iraq was occupied? I'd love to see it.
Notice, these all pretty much are policy issues. The military forces on the ground of the coalition have performed superbly under impossible conditions. The fault can be found with the Pentagon, strategic military planners, State Department, Intelligence agencies, the Administration, even pressure brought by Congress on very skewed priorities at times.
"How could we have gone so wrong in Iraq?" How to screw up by the numbers is my preferred way to express it. Will make a great Military Channel special someday. Or maybe, as my PLT SGT in country was fond of saying:
"it's like watching a monkey trying to (mount) a football."
