US Citizens, how would you feel if this was reversed:

[ROC]

Almost a good analogy Vulcan, except Tariffs are a normal part of trade and negotiable.  There are tariffs on US Goods entering China and Japan, there are Tariffs on Chinese goods entering the US.  What does that have to do with Stealing?  I wish the US would increase tariffs on imported junk from China, or Japanese Cars, but those tariffs get applied and reversed all the time, and not just against the US.  

Now, before anyone cries about this poor kid, read the article.

Cracked Code, distributed the music, Knowingly violated copywrite laws, and here is my favorite part right here.

Last month, in news that slipped the local media's radar, Hew Griffiths pleaded guilty in a US District Court in Alexandria, Virginia, to criminal copyright infringement offences.

If your going to go to bat for someone, pick some one worthwhile.

The kid broke the law, the Australian Government supported this effort over the course of Years, this is not a simple kid off the street who recorded his CD into his MP3 player, totally off the mark with this one Sir.

[-tronski-]

Due to the FTA agreement with the US, the Liberal govt. is compelled to enforce tougher american copyright/intellectual property laws that normally wouldn't have been so serious under Australian law before the FTA.

Basically the liberal govt dropped its pants to get a FTA, and to maintain its "special" relationship with the Bush administration...

 Tronsky

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Should you be free to commit crimes in another country but stay safe outside that country's borders?

But he didn't commit crimes within the USA, he has never been there. This is the whole can of worms.

Maybe a better analogy. Say you posted an image on a website in the US that was visible to French or German users, and that image contained nazi emblems such as the swastika. Should you be extradited for breaking French/German law to those countries? Or how would you feel if on a holiday to Europe you were arrested on arrival?

[moot]

Vulcan, he didn't use it for his financial gains, but he did use it at no small expense of the copyright owners.
Can I just steal your bank account numbers, passwords etc, and hand em over on the net for free, claiming no benefits to myself, and expect no reaction from you when it combines to some proportionaly huge negative balance?
It's an exploit.

[Dago]

Originally posted by Vulcan
But he didn't commit crimes within the USA, he has never been there. This is the whole can of worms.

Maybe a better analogy. Say you posted an image on a website in the US that was visible to French or German users, and that image contained nazi emblems such as the swastika. Should you be extradited for breaking French/German law to those countries? Or how would you feel if on a holiday to Europe you were arrested on arrival?

Are you purposely trying to look dense?  A person steals millions from a US company, and you want to quibble about where his chair was when he did it?

You think doing it from another country makes it just peachy?

If I could send a missle up from my house to Austrailia and kill some citizens, would it be okay because I did it from my house, and not from Austrailia?

Geez Vulcan, break out the tin foil hat and hide in your cellar, the men in black are coming to get you.

I won't even get into how you tried to spin this to look like less than it is, and minimize the crime just so you can try and stir up some pathetic indignant outrage.

[FrodeMk3]

In 2003, the US Department of Justice charged Griffiths with violating the copyright laws of the US, and requested his extradition from Australia. Senator Ellison signed a notice for Griffiths' arrest and Australian Federal Police arrested him at his home.

Griffiths fought the prospect of extradition through the courts for three years, in which time he was denied bail and detained in prison. He indicated that he would be willing to plead guilty to a breach of Australian copyright law, which meant he could serve time in Australia.
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That was the piece of that article that I found the most interesting. If I gather from reading this correctly, The guy was first arrested in Australia, THEN extradited here. I thought the same as ROC until I read a little more into the article. I was origanally under the impression that He was in the U.S. when he got caught; I did'nt know his arrest was on Australian soil.

From the same article:
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Griffiths, a Briton, has lived in Australia since the age of seven. From his home base on the central coast of NSW, he served as the leader of a group named Drink Or Die, which "cracked" copy-protected software and media products and distributed them free of cost. Often seen with long hair and bare feet, Griffiths did not make money from his activities, and lived with his father in a modest house.

But Drink or Die's activities did cost American companies money — an estimated $US50 million ($A60 million), if legal sales were substituted for illegal downloads undertaken through Drink or Die. It also raised the ire of US authorities.
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Question:

If this is considered stealing, Does that make anyone who downloaded from the site an accomplice, And subject to extradition and imprisonment under U.S. law? I'm thinking this is gonna be a big topic in things like Aussie elections.

Last, Here's the whole paragraph that ROC quoted, I found it really interesting:
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Griffiths appears to have been singled out by US authorities. British-based members of Drink or Die were reportedly tried in Britain. Last month, in news that slipped the local media's radar, Hew Griffiths pleaded guilty in a US District Court in Alexandria, Virginia, to criminal copyright infringement offences. According to US authorities, Griffiths admitted to overseeing all the illegal operations of the now-disbanded Drink Or Die.

[Dago]

Originally posted by FrodeMk3
I found it really interesting:
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Griffiths appears to have been singled out by US authorities.  

I hardly think someone who admitted to having primary responsibilty for corporate loss of 50 - 60 million dollars as having been "singled out".

[Dago]

So Vulcan, did you get your answer?  You asked how we felt.  I think we told you.

FRY  HIM!    

[ROC]

He did commit crimes against an american company, which is protected by international law.  If it's not enforced, then what leverage does Australia have while it tries to protect It's copywrite authority?

If you wrote a book, in Australia, and you sold 5,000 copies in your local book stores in the first week of publication, I snagged a copy, duplicated that book and distributed it to 750,000 people over here, then that's just too bad for you, right?  So what if your out your contracted $3.25 per book, heck you made enough on the 5000 you sold, right?

How about that movie you invested in, say oh..I dunno, Road Warrior.  You invest a few million in the flick, on release day it opens to rave reviews and 300,000 people visit the theater on opening weekend.  It's scheduled to release in the US next month, but before that happens, I snag a copy and Up it goes to Utube here in the states, and I spend the next few weeks duplicating to CDs and passing them out at the stores by the handfuls.

You invest a few million, and the 200 million expected by the US Release goes byby because everyones already seen the thing before it opens here.  Tough Cookies for you, those damned international copywrite laws.

You Do realize that Australia is protected by the same international copywrite laws that you are rallying against, don't you?

Bet if that happened to you, you'd like to get your hands on me, wouldn't ya.

[Fishu]

The law is different in every country. Something can be a crime in one country but not in the other. There are hundreds of countries in the world, each with their own set of laws - Are we supposed to know the laws of each and every country in the world?

In Thailand you could face a sentence of 20 years in prison for making a joke of their beloved king. In most of the countries this is not a crime, but should we be extradited for breaking their laws in a country where it is not a crime?

Okey, the example might be a little bit too harsh for some. Each country has a slightly different kinds of copyright laws. In some countries you can share music between your friends (in physical contact), but in some countries you cannot - Should you be extradited to another country for breaking this part of their law in a country where it isn't illegal? Mind you that it's easy to warez programs worth $1000 USD - Could be just one program (like you're ever going to buy that expensive programs for non-commercial use).

This guy could been tried in Australia too. Now that he's being tried in the US, all the money is going to go to the US companies. In Australia he would've had to pay to everyone who's copyrights he's violated - I'm sure he's warezzed european games too. Why does the US have to have a privilege to cash in with the piraters?

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Dago
I hardly think someone who admitted to having primary responsibilty for corporate loss of 50 - 60 million dollars as having been "singled out".

Err bollocks. It is an estimate. At best less than 5% of those copying that software would've brought it. Technically it is NOT stealing, it is a license infringement. Big difference.

But, I'm not defending the guys actions at all. You seem to be completely missing the point dago. How can someone be extradited for a crime not commited against US assets (eg hacking NASA servers) nor on US soil?

Maybe you should do some research, see what countries the US has extradition treaties http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_extradition_treaties

Now, I hope you are all  versed in those countries laws (especially the Islamic laws) because if your government reciprocates what it expects from other governments you guys are in a deep pile of doggypoo.

[Odee]

Originally posted by Vulcan
...Now, what if some country found YOU in violation of one of their laws. How would you feel being extraditing having never set foot in that country?

Operative words here are, "Breaking the LAW".  If you can't do the time, then don't do the crime.

As for the "kidnapping" for extradition... Look at the Dog guy, and what he did in Mexico to bring a fugitive to American justice.  Now he faces extradiotion for illegally entering and detaining a citizen in Mexico.

Lastly, if this bloke just cracked the software and did nothing with it other than copy and leave the copies lying about after, then how did the authorities get wind of him... Hmmmm?

His group, Drink or Die is responsible for financial losses in the tens of millions of dollars.  Note, I say his group, and not him.  If he is found to be a "recreational hacker" the kind that cracks stuff just because they can, and does nothing more to cause loss to the company creating the software, then I think he should be hired by somebody to stop other hackers.

[Sundowner]

Unfortunately, the lines of sovereignty between nations in so called "World Law" is progressing in a distressing direction.

With the advent of the information age cases like this will increase until they become common place.

With that precedent set, other accusations of crimes will follow---the typical "slippery slope".

On a side note..imagine the expense of travel, time etc imposed on the falsely accused to go and defend themselves abroad.

Good post, Vulcan.

Regards,
Sun

[MiloMorai]

Did anyone notice this in the news article?

"On top of a possible 10-year jail term, Griffiths could be fined $US500,000. (By way of comparison, the average sentence for rape in Victoria is six years and 10 months.)"

Almost 7 years for rape but the almighty dollar gets him 10 years and maybe a 1/2 million dollar fine for an estimated $US50 million cost to American companies.

Yet,

NEW YORK -- In a textbook example of how cooperating with prosecutors can pay, former WorldCom CFO Scott Sullivan got a five-year sentence Thursday despite being chief architect of one of the biggest U.S. financial frauds.

In sentencing Sullivan, whose guilty pleas to three criminal counts exposed him to 27 years in prison, U.S. District Judge Barbara Jones saluted his help in the prosecution of former WorldCom CEO Bernie Ebbers. "He provided information ... without which Mr. Ebbers could not have been indicted," Jones said.

In March, a jury convicted Ebbers of instigating an $11billion fraud at WorldCom that cost thousands of employees their jobs and drove the company into bankruptcy protection. Relying on the testimony of Sullivan and others, jurors agreed with the government that Ebbers forced WorldCom's accountants to fudge the numbers to preserve his personal fortune, much of which was in company stock.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

That $50M is utter bs. You can copy a million records to people who would never spend a dime to shop them. The company may lose perhaps 1% of the total sum if even that.

Anyone who has ever downloaded anything from the net knows people d/l stuff just out of curiosity even if they don't plan to keep/use the stuff.

The above post shows how out of reality the whole thing with copyright has gotten. Steal 11Bn and get 5 years - share a few records/software with no profit - 10 years.