Losing Sight

[Condor]

I believe there is a maxim something like “lose sight, lose the fight”.  I lose most of the fights I get into because I almost always lose sight of the other guy.  I’ve been in the game for 7-8 months.  I had some experience with off line combat flight sims like IL-2 and the oldie, Fighters of the Pacific, before starting Aces High.  I have a complete CH HOTAS/Pedals set up and use TrackIR so I’m not limited by my gear.  I have BFM down fairly well.  My ACM is rough but, in my opinion, is not the limiting factor.  It’s hard to employ and progress in ACM if you can’t keep track of your opponent.  

It’s so bad that my son who just started AH a couple of months ago with almost no previous flight sim experience beats me routinely and is advising me on how to improve.  Just last night we were fighting in the TA and he told me I got several reversals on him.  I didn’t take advantage of them because I didn’t even know they happened….because I lost sight of him.  

I need help.  I’ve trained with Schatzi, Ren, Ghost (in the Val of course),and Mace.  All have been good trainers but we never tackled this problem specifically.  Has anyone worked out a systematic approach to developing the skill required to maneuver and keep track of the other guy at the same time?  If one of you trainers believes you have an effective approach, please respond and I’ll look you up in the TA.  

I have this fear that it may be an innate ability that I just don’t have and can’t learn.  I hope I’m wrong because I don’t find Sim Cities nearly as much fun as this.  

[Krusty]

Here's a tip...

Fly with F3 mode. That probably only works in TA, but try it. You have to track the enemy when they move past you visually, and as they leave your sight you need to estimate their current path and yours, and keep that in mind.


My main question is: How do you lose sight of them? You have track IR you shouldn't lose them til they pass under your wing, tail, or nose, and then you should know exactly where they are. Or, roughly where they are.

If you're merging and still looking at your gunsight, you're not doing it right. As you merge you need to keep your view on the enemy. Either he's going high, low, or flat, but whatever he does you need to watch him.


Do you have a hat and an extra button on your HOTAS you can spare?

Might be worth it just to map a hat and an "UP" button, so you get the hang of where to look first, THEN go back to Track IR.

Those are just my initial thoughts.

[The Fugitive]

I don't have trackIR, so I'm not sure if you could have an issue there with set-up. I know some people have complained about "getting it right". That could be the first place to start.

After that, the whole trick is to be able to do manuvers while looking any place but strait ahead. A great way to practic is to fly off line and do barrel rolls, immelmens, high and low yo-yos, and zoom climbs over and around the circling "4 horsemen". All the while, using your views to keep your eye on one of the planes. Film it, and review the films to see how well you performmed the maneuvers, as well as rewatching to see if you DID keep the "bad guy" in view at all times.

[Gianlupo]

Aside from problems with the TrackIR setup and the views setup, I'd like to add one thing: IMO, it's essential not to lose sight of your target, to "be in the cockpit" with your mind. When you fly, everything around you should disappear and you should feel like if you were in the cockpit. If you can think in this way, it should be natural to "turn your head" (i.e. select the right view) in the direction in which the target goes.

If you don't fly "in the cockpit", if you're not there, I think you'll always find difficult to keep track of your target: that's why I think Krusty's advice can't do any good (sorry, K, I don't want to criticize, just stating my opinion).

Of course, "being in the cockpit" is the first step: then you'll have to develop the right feel for the tridimensional space and the movement in that space, but that's something that comes almost always naturally (even though for someone is easier than for others).

Try changing the way your mind see the game, not the technical side of the matter (I never tried TrackIR, but it should come even more naturally to follow your enemy if you can "put yourself in the cockpit")

[Krusty]

No worries Gian.

I was just thinking if he's not sure where the enemy is going (under nose/tail/wing) that in F3 he'd still be able to see them, and get more of a feel for where they went.

Now that I think about it, I don't think it'd be that helpful.

[trotter]

I would recommend that you stop thinking about SA in terms of vision but instead in terms of knowledge. Right now you are feeling lost because you lose vision of the enemy during an engagement. Well, that's really not a problem at all. We all do. I would estimate that, even in an engagement that I win fairly easily, I lose sight of the bogey 2-3 times.

Why is this not a problem? Because tracking a bogey during an engagement is not about seeing them at all times, but knowing where they are and where they will be. The good news for you is that this isnt some innate ability that some have and others don't...you just simply have to start understanding the concept of SA a bit differently. When I lose sight of the bogey, I usually know roughly where they are. If I accurately guess where they will be once I regain sight, I often have a guns solution right there. If not, then I will have to re-manuever for position.

When the bogey is out of sight, how do you determine which would be the best guess as to their position? What I do is that I just assume they will make the best move possible for them (the worst possible for you). If you counter that and then find out they did something completely different, chances are they just did something ill-advised for them. You may be able to utilize that to your own advantage.

The biggest thing is just not to assume that since you lost vision of the enemy, he/she could be "anywhere". You probably already have a better estimate of where they are than you give yourself credit for. Put that into action, and use that knowledge in situations where you cannot actually see the bogey.

[B@tfinkV]

was gunna reply but trotter nailed my point right on the head. know where they 'should be' and use that as a starting ground for finding them visually.

[lilprop]

I agree with these guys

Develop a sense of where the other guy is going to be (and how you're going to get there)

Learn how to fly without looking where you're going.  If you can keep your eyes on your opponent, it minimizes the amount of guessing you have to do.  I spend more time glancing back and forth rather than focusing on any particular view.  It's kind of like checking the mirrors in your car when you're driving.

The best part is you develop these skills by spending more time flying.

I'll see you in the TA.

[devild0g]

Its to bad your not like me... *spidey senses tingle* 0.0 oh noes i got someone on my six.... (wakes up)


Oh yah sorry I was just dreaming so yeah plus if you fly for long enough... you learn what people do after a head on pass is predictable... they usually go into a flat circle turn. What you should do after the headon is climb up high and than turn so you see him circling around to find you but you can already see him below you and dive on in before he can make any counter to your dive. Very effective, you just gota learn to do things differently than other players. When you learn your own move's your good to go my friend. Also if you want to practice killing others while being able to use f3 and fight, join 8 player. You never gota worry about people ganging up on you (well usually) But thats just my 2 cents see you in the skies.

[BaldEagl]

Taking what Trotter and Bat said to an extreme I often find myself pulling so much lead on a bogie in a fight that I'm firing bursts and hitting him (and maybe even getting the kill) while he's out of view below the nose of my plane.

Another example of "out of view" is when flying defensively against a higher con diving from your six.  The only way to really keep him in view is to climb watching him out your up or up-rear view.  This will surely get you killed.  To survive, at some point you need to roll off to one side or the other and in ensuring your short-term survival you're going to lose sight.  Regaining it quickly is the key to what happens next.

These are just two examples.  Experience will teach you where those "missing cons" are and where they're likey to end up.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by trotter
tracking a bogey during an engagement is not about seeing them at all times, but knowing where they are and where they will be. The good news for you is that this isnt some innate ability that some have and others don't...

I agree with most of this.  But, assuming that you might be slow, like me, take the following to heart.

The first, and very most important thing you have to learn in these air combat games, is to be able to fly your airplane while looking backwards (or upwards, or a combination, you get the idea).  It took me a very long while to learn this, but it is something that can be practiced offline.

What can't be practiced offline is what Trotter, Batfink and all the others say, and that is predicting where the con is going to be.  I think this is a huge skill, the second most important, but I also think that some people DO have a natural sense of it (Batfink is a good example - I think younger people who have grown up with computer games have an advantage), while others have to say to themselves, "Let's see, he was going toward my 4:00 when I pulled up, and I think he was turning to his right, so perhaps he'll be at my 7:00 when I get to the top of this loop, better look there."  After awhile it comes naturally, but it can be a very long time before that happens.

In the meantime, do the talking-to-yourself routine.  It helps.

- oldman

[Auger]

Trotter nailed it.  It's not necessarily seeing the enemy at all times, but knowing where to look when you want to put eyeballs on him again.  That skill is part intuition and part experience.  While I don't use TrackIR, I remember how tough it was for me getting my fingers to go to the proper view when I started playing again.  You might find it handy to practice getting to specific views with TrackIR.  When you can get the exact view you want (back left, high right, etc) while yanking and banking the aircraft, and don't feel at all disoriented while doing it, you'll be about 75% of the way there.

The rest is quick calculations, but not the pencil and paper kind.  When you last saw the bandit, he was traveling in a specific direction, nose high or low, wings banked at a certain angle, possibly rolling.  You just sort of project the enemy forward in time to where he should wind up from those factors, and you'll have a pretty good idea of where you need to look to pick him up again.  It sounds complicated, but it comes with experience and you don't even think about it much.

Just remember that when you do lose the bandit, don't fly a predictable path when trying to find him again.  You'll know exactly where he is after about 10 seconds of that.

[Emu]

Originally posted by Condor
I have a complete CH HOTAS/Pedals set up and use TrackIR so I’m not limited by my gear.

I also have TrackIR, but I am not using it at the moment.  I learned to fly without it, and it seems I would have to retrain myself and go through those initial 2-3 months of pain before I can use it properly.  The other thing I've noticed is that the set-up must be pretty ergonomic for someone to use TrackIR effectively, and at the moment, my setup is definitely not ergonomic.  

The main problem I found with TrackIR is that I was always looking at the bandit, and my joystick would just instinctively maneuver so as to keep my lift vector to him... essentially, my ACM went down the toilet and all I was doing was following others around and hoping I would get inside their turn/loop/whatever.   However, the most annoying thing is that when I did happen to lose the bandit, it was pretty hard to reacquire him. I found using the AH view system to be superior as the view change is instant, and you can customize each view and put your virtual head in areas of the cockpit which you just cant emulate with trackir (particularly when checking six, unless u fly a bubble canopy plane... i dont).  Having the ability to switch my virtual head around the cockpit quickly is key for me to be able to track a bandit effectively, and using one of the hats in my throttle fits the bill fantastically.  Although TrackIR has great potential, and I will invest the time to use it properly in the future, I think it definitely requires a greater mastery of what has already been described here: knowing where the bandit will be based on the different circumstances.

My advice to you is to try and fly without TrackIR for a week or so. Take the time to configure each view on your aircraft of choice to what you think gives you the best visibility/angle, and program one of your stick hats to switch views for you (to get up-front, up-right, up-left, etc. I have programmed a button on my stick to Keypad 5, which is the up view, and then combine that with the hat).  If you find yourself being able to keep better track of bandits, after time, I think this will enable you to better predict an enemy's movement at which point you could reintroduce TrackIR back into your AH life.  Anyway, this is just a suggestion... I am sure some TrackIR users will disagree with me

Good luck,

Emu

[Xasthur]

I suggest flying a 109 for a while.

Nothing will force you to 'see without seeing' your enemy better than the canopy of a Messerschmitt

Seriously, give it a try for a while. This will force you 'know' where your enemy is rather than 'seeing' where he is.

After you go from that to a Seafire, you'll know what I mean.

[Krusty]

Forget about the canopy! It's the huge nose! The ever-view-blocking-cowling!

Why the P51s and P38s get these deep deep drop-down windows front left and front right, but the 109s don't, when they HAD windows there, is beyond me.

Hell even the 190s forward view is better than the 109, and that's saying something!