Bouncy gunnery with flaps

[Simaril]

I've been flying the Corsair lots lately, and it's made a long running annoyance into a problem. After trying to just cope, it occured to me that there might be a way to minimize it -- so here goes.

Flying for angles in the F4U relies heavily on flaps, especially at lower speeds. However, with even one notch down I'll often find it's a real struggle to keep the nose from lifting too far above the target flight path. Pushing forward on the stick gets me into the nose bounce problem enough that it's a real struggle to keep the pipper where I want it. More often than not, I give up -- use the flaps to get lead, then pull 'em up to stabilize for the shot.

I'm hoping there's a better way.

I use a Saitek X52, and have the scaling set so the lower third of stick movement range is tapered. The 10% bar starts at just over half way up and I have the sliders move up evenly to reach max at about 40% of stick range. (With my set up I do not have any nose bounce in any plane when flaps are up.)

I have encountered the problem both with and without combat trim, though lately I've been using manual trim when dogfighting, and controlling with the X52 rotaries when needed. I have trouble beleiving that trim is the answer, though.

Does the bounce mean that I am using flaps too aggressively? It seems to me that at really low speeds, when riding the edge, there is no bounce at all -- probably because there's no excess lift, with every joule of it being used keeping me in the air. But, those flaps are soooo helpful at higher speeds, and I'd hate to back off on their use.

Or, is it a matter of just over controlling when compensating for the flap- generated lift?

Appreciate any thoughts!

[Krusty]

From memory, combat trim only is calibrated for "flaps up, level flight" -- so if you have it on, or HAD it on, and the trim is already set, then popping flaps is going to really push your nose up.

You're then stuck forcing the stick forward, and left/right to get that shot. This is not very user-friendly, and is one of the worst ways to aim. It's much easier to pull BACK and aim then push FORWARD and aim.

If you're going to pop some flaps, maybe take a second to trim nose down before or as you do it, then you won't suffer so much bounce.

I have experienced this as well, and it annoys me when it happens.

[trotter]

I've experienced this a lot, and I've just come to accept it. The way I see it is... if using flaps in a hog has gotten me an angle enough to take a brief deflection shot, usually with a few more turns I can saddle up and then fully go flaps up for the shot. I see it as just a matter of patience.

This is keeping in mind that stall fighting in a hog is generally not a good idea unless you are up against a plane/s you know you can outturn, and are in a low threat environment. The only situation I encounter where patience for the flaps up shot may come back to bite is against a spit. Some spit pilots underestimate the corsair's turning at optimal speed, and I can sometimes get around on them for a shot (albeit with flaps deployed). If spitty pilot drops flaps, however, I usually won't see any sort of shot again. In that case its just a matter of hoping to get some critical hits with the bouncy flaps-deployed shot, and disengaging at the right time.

[TequilaChaser]

Sim,
this is one reason I set my trim in the F4U variants at level flight cruise speed per say..........usually around 300 to 330 , then I make sure combat trim etc are turned off, what this does is allow me to have an ability to use ever flap setting with no fear of having the bouncing nose syndrome

, also when I am at the top of my vertical climb/loop/immel etc my plane is not fighting the CT when going down, and lets me unload and gain speed quicker........

YMMV.........

with that said, whe I run into a RUNNER, and I exceed the 350/375 speed mark trying to run him down, then I will pop CT ( combat Trim ) on to give me the ability to gain/maintain more Speed ........but any speed under 300, I leave Trim set to the level flight cruising speed of 300 to 330 as mentioned above.........btw.....it also lets me exert more performance from the Hog verses using the dreaded CT trim , which is just a personal preference of mine, again YMMV.....

Good Luck ~S~

[mtnman]

I have all my sliders at the top for all of my controls.  I did not like the "graduated" idea, and found it was causing me to over-control.  I want the stick throw to mimic the control surface movement.  I fly with small, smooth stick movements.  I fly R/C planes and am used to doing this.

I tried the trims on the rotary on my X52, and hated it.  The response time seemed slower, almost as if the trim movement would continue a bit after I stopped turning the dial or pushing the slider.  One night of agony later I put my trims onto my top left HAT switch on the stick-  problems solved.  I have much "finer" control this way, but maybe that's just me.

I don't like the Auto Combat Trim when using flaps.  I like to set my trim (F4U) with the elevator trim just lower than neutral.  I may "tweak" it a bit in a fight, but not much.  I prefer to fly with the auto trim on, but turn it off when I get into a fight, especially if I am getting ready to drop some flaps.

I get the nose-lift ballooning thing too, but I think my strategy is a bit different.  I get nose-lift when my speed is a bit at the top end for each notch of flaps.  When in a turn-fight I use flaps to stop the wing-wobble-of-death.  So I drop a notch JUST BEFORE I feel that will occur.  And another notch a few seconds later for the same reason.  My nose doesn't come up much, but rather it doesn't drop.  Whatever it takes to fly smoooooth.  I put them up before they blow up, again to keep my nose from lifting, and also because if they are blowing back up I'm trying for speed and don't want the drag.

That said, sometimes the nose-lift is a gift from the gods!  I use it LOTS for reversals, dropping a notch or two of flaps ASAP as I come over the top.  The nose-lift helps your situation here.  Raise them back up as you finish the reversal.

I also use the flap induced nose-lift to give me a nice shot.  (Opposite of the shot-disrupting situation you describe.) You are dropping flaps, and then fighting the "bounce".  Try this- Use the bounce!  Don't fight it.  When you are behind the bogie setting up for your shot, but still in lag pursuit, drop a notch of flaps to bring your nose up into lead for your shot.  I don't shoot until D200 in this situation, and fire as I lose sight of my opponent under the cowl.  

In short- don't pull elevator to pull lead for a shot, use your flaps instead.  Fine-tune with the elevator if need be, but you'll be able to do it with small movements that don't escalate into the shot-killing bounce.  Let the nose-lift help you out.  It's predictable!  You know it will happen! Fly the F4U long enough and you'll even know how much nose-lift to expect.

I generally do this when I am 200 back from my opponent, with my prop just behind his tail, as he is making a turn.  Drop a notch and fire as he disappears under the cowl. POP!

There is a definate speed range where this works best.  Too fast and the flaps won't drop, so obviously just fly/shoot as per normal.  Too slow, and your flaps are already deployed all the way so it doesn't work there either.

Sounds goofy I guess, but I do it all the time...

MtnMan

[moneyguy]

i use the knobs on my X52 throttle for trim. the thumb one for elevators, the top one for ailerons. i also noticed a while back that the stall limiter will create a bouncing affect as it tries to limit the stall. it takes a little bit to get used to manual trim and no stall limiter but its well worth it in the end.

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by Krusty


You're then stuck forcing the stick forward, and left/right to get that shot. This is not very user-friendly, and is one of the worst ways to aim. It's much easier to pull BACK and aim then push FORWARD and aim.

If you're going to pop some flaps, maybe take a second to trim nose down before or as you do it, then you won't suffer so much bounce.

Do you know what you are talking about?    Do people believe what you say about things you do not know anything about?  

[Krusty]

Everybody else seems to understand what I typed.

[Kweassa]

Simaril, try adding a bit of dampening in the stick settings. I've raised the dampening on my stick about 20~30%, and it helped immensely in getting rid of the 'bounce'.

[Saxman]

You're not the only one who finds the F4U flaps a bit TOO effective at times. However like mtn said, use that to your advantage. I know I've surprised a lot of spit drivers by dropping one or two notches with the way they can haul that big nose around.

It's REALLY a matter of timing. If you're popping your nose up too high for the shot you may be deploying flaps too late (this can occur at any speed, but especially when you're faster). Try dropping a notch or two a second or too sooner, and as mtn said you'll be dropping RIGHT into a shooting solution before the other guy can blink.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Sim,
this is one reason I set my trim in the F4U variants at level flight cruise speed per say..........usually around 300 to 330 , then I make sure combat trim etc are turned off, what this does is allow me to have an ability to use ever flap setting with no fear of having the bouncing nose syndrome
......

That's a great tip. I'll try that next time I up. Getting used to manual trim still, but I'm hoping it will pay off in the long run.

I've done something similar for some time in the 109s -- I'll have the elevator trim wheel maxed out with up trim. Then, if I start to compress, A quick tap of a throttle button gets me heading up in no time.

[Krusty]

20-30%?? Wow, that's a lot.

Would you recommend this specifically for the planes where flaps cause nose bounce? (I think the 38s have some too)

I.e. mostly for f4u?


I'll give it a shot later tonight!

[bj229r]

I get same problem with jug--do an awesome move (with a notch or 2 of flaps)..comin down on an unsuspecting puke, and frikkin nose keeps comin up to the point where I cant hit target---gotta wait 2-3 seconds to get flaps back to normal, THEN shoot (mebbe having to yank back on stick to counteract sudden loss of lift. This, combined with a pilot of little skill/gunnery ability, is a pisser:furious

[The Fugitive]

I fly the 38 a lot and have no idea what you guys are talking about with this nose bounce.  Same with the F4. I trim by flicking the combat trim on and off, and I just don't remember any bounce.

I think its because I rarely shoot with flaps down.  I use my flaps in ropes, and high yos. When I'm nose down, flaps are up and I'm using the speed for a guns pass, or for ummmmmm  ..... separation    If I'm turning that hard to use my flaps in a turn, I don't really have a shot worth taking.

[DustyR]

I fly the 38 & use flaps alot, along with alerion trim, combat trim & auto level.  I agree that a nose up attitude can be a nuisance at times, but it really is nice when doing a lead shot.  The nose up attitude can handled easly with a little bit of alerion trim.  When you want back to a normal trimmed AC hit "combat trim off" and everything except the flaps are back to a normal AC.  I do not use  the auto built in controls I recommend disabling them & use the manual controls as need.  A Saitek X52 system helps alot.