Author Topic: P-47D-25... What would you have done?  (Read 1069 times)

Offline LEADPIG

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P-47D-25... What would you have done?
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2007, 12:19:29 PM »
I don't see anything wrong with it. You had two guys on 1 of you, 1 109 perched high like a buzzard. I wouldn't be looking forward to fighting the 109 on the deck after having turn fought the mustang, or having to avoid his repeated bnz attacks while fighting the 51. You played the hand that was dealt and did quite well i might add. I think people who talk about ack runners and such, are talking about when there's two guys around, no one in sight, both flying spitfires, and the guy keeps runing through the ack. That's a pretty fair contest, or when your in a 190 on the deck and a 51 starts running from you, i'd say that's a pretty fair contest. Bottom line it's okay when the odds are stacked against you and your trying to even the odds, i don't mind a guy doing that, just says he's playing his tactics well, quodos for him. But when your on the deck in a 38, the other guys in a LA-7 and he starts running through ack, it's a little annoying. I'm thinking at this point come on man you got a reasonable chance of killing me what are you running for? I think they're talking bout those guys, so your cool, no problem.  ..... Nice job by the way, pretty smart flying.   :cool:

Offline T99LMG

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P-47D-25... What would you have done?
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2007, 09:08:47 AM »
I think that you used your base abilities to your advantage, when they say that you are a hacker, and a cheater, and all that stuff. Well, all you did is make it fair! That's all. Now, what I would have done is I would do the trick that Heavyweight and Lightwieght planes, usually the Spitfire XI, I would nose up and stall, let the others follow, and as they are behind you, you switch positions and be on his 6.

Offline Widewing

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P-47D-25... What would you have done?
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2007, 09:50:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BaldEagl
Yes, that's why I started out by saying that with all the planes I fly there are a lot that I haven't "mastered".

The 109 did disengage to grab some alt/E but the pony was gaining angles on me as I bled E turning which is when i decided to try the dive.

If you've got some tips on high-alt fighting in the P-47's I'd love to hear them (part of the reason for my post).

BTW, I never considered flaps in the thin air at 20K as i would have near the deck.  Would this have been a viable option in this plane at that alt?  If so I may have been able to finish off the Pony as the 109 climbed out.  I just thought of this now.  Had i thought of it then I guess I would have at least tried it.


You can deploy flaps at 20k or higher. That's one of the advantages of the P-47s and P-51, being able to begin getting flaps out at 400 mph. At higher altitudes, you need to pay close attention to your indicated air speed. Everything centers on your speed. Stall speed, as well as flap deployment speed is based upon IAS, not TAS. Keep that in mind.

You can actually practice this in the Training Arena. I have set up a 30k base with the ETO plane set. You can take off from the field or air spawn to two different areas of the map. The field is A3, a bishop base.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline bj229r

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P-47D-25... What would you have done?
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2007, 05:54:18 PM »
I always seem to arrive in similar situations just back from afk/autoclimb, going about 190 mph, and the other guy(s) are ALWAYS 2-3k above. Then I proceed to curse myself for not leveling out WAY before, that I might have some E to fight with. My skill level isnt nearly as high as some who've commented here, but I don't see what you could have done other than the course you chose---either the G14 OR the 51 could have been a good fight, but 109 climbs better than anything, and the cherry-pickin salamander (just guessing:D ) would have nailed ya while ya were dealing with the 51. Aside from that, hang in the ack, or die out at sea.
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Offline mtnman

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P-47D-25... What would you have done?
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2007, 01:37:49 PM »
Sounds like you did fine BaldEagl, but there are a few things I would have changed. ('Course, I mighta died with no kills, though, hehe).

When approaching higher cons like that, I don't climb, and I don't WEP.  I level for speed, maybe even nose down slightly, briefly, to get to top speed.  Don't accel so fast that you are above top speed though, or you'll just have wasted a precious bit of E.  My goal is to come in with speed, but lower, to look "helpless", all the while holding more E than is apparant (hiding E).  My altitude may be 12K, but my speed allows me to bump up higher at will, making my "useful" altitude closer to 14K.  Save your WEP, you'll need it at some point.

Next, I approach the cons, but off to the side a bit, maybe 3-4K out.  Don't go under them, make them come to you.  My goal here is to get them to chase me.  I'm fast, so they need to dive a bit to keep up.  Ideally, I want a tail chase that will cause them to drop to my level, to where our speeds equalize.  If successful, that will have stolen their alt advantage.  I can deal with their positional advantage easier than their alt advantage.  That tail chase will burn his E advantage.

Normally, this won't work immediately.  They will dive to catch you, and will be faster, so will catch you.  When I see them about 2k back, gaining, I turn to the side (usually right).  I want them approaching me perpendicularly, or nearly so, so that they are closing fast.  Make your turn fairly gentle, but tightening a bit as you go through it.  He's faster, so will need to pull harder to stay with you, burning his E.  As you finish your 90-100 degree right turn, roll level, and watch him out the side.  When he hits D600, pause for a split second, then pull up slightly and roll left.(Barrel roll defense).  If he doesn't go for the shot, but instead yo-yo's up, you need to go straight instead (no barrel roll) He'll go up, and then turn to dive back onto your six again.  Repeat this a few times and he will be nearly CO-E.  Keep your moves gentle, but don't get hit.  I'm not trying for shots during my barrel rolls yet, just looking to dodge their shots and save my E.  Later, that may change.  Get too aggressive too soon, and I usually die.

If I can turn it Co-E, my next move is often to drop a bit (1000 ft) to get speed, and try to get them to attack downward, while I dodge upward on a more or less nose-nose merge.  If they fall for it, I will now be above them  :)  If one of them falls for it, but not the other, I devote my effort to the top guy, and often the lower one is out of the fight.

I don't get ultra aggressive against two higher cons.  I avoid slowing down, and avoid Rolling Scissors, etc.  Try to make your moves smooth, and subtle, saving E.  Try to make them chase you, but try to make them turn a bit more than you.  If they yo-yo up and left, you go right, etc.  Try to keep the altitude you do have, and keep your speed.

If they fly tight together (like wingmen), I treat them like one enemy- but like a longer/wider enemy than normal.  If one stays high, I try to take the fight away from him.  Make him work to stay above you (he'll have to dive a bit to keep fast enough to maintain his position).  If one stays high, I will play the game as described, but will watch for a weakness in the lower con that will allow me to get ultra-aggressive with him, and hopefully kill him very fast, before his buddy can dive in to save him.  Normally this is through a few subtle dodges, followed by an aggressive reversal.

Even though this burns your E, The "savior" will generally be streaking in with so much speed that he is easy to dodge.  And if you don't kill the first guy, he often pulls so hard to dodge your un-expected reversal that he will be lower than you anyway.  

The trick (for me at least), is to stay fast, and to stay as high as I can throughout the fight.  I avoid the deck, because once you're there you're out of options.  If anything I will try to gain or maintain my height whenever possible.

Keep your speed, make them burn their E by making them go too fast and chase you.  Try to equalize the E-states, and seperate the wingmen.  If you can sucker them into giving up their E, you just need to sucker them into giving up their angles too.  Don't get to aggressive, or fixated on one plane for your shots, but take your shots when you can, and don't miss.

I do die alot this way though, hehe.

MtnMan
MtnMan

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Offline LEADPIG

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P-47D-25... What would you have done?
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2007, 05:18:11 PM »
Mtn man your giving away one of my favorite moves. If you do it right sometimes you can get a shot as they go by. Guys with that much speed cannot turn that hard, when i make diving attacks i usually keep speed down enough to maybe get a shot, but also fast enough to get away. That's a classic maneaver there Mtnman and as i remember your pretty scary in that Corsair, opened my eyes a few times in TA. Listen to him guys he knows what he's talking about. :D