Author Topic: so 262 is built like a zeke for realism or gameplay?  (Read 2095 times)

Offline Hazzer

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so 262 is built like a zeke for realism or gameplay?
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2007, 05:08:18 AM »
I don't agree,the 262 is in no way like any zero in this game;flown as it should be it's deadly,I've only lost one and that was my flying ,not the frragile 262,and i've escaped and landed comfortably with one engine.By the way the 262 is an interceptor not a dogfighter.get in quick hit hard leave..if your taking hit's from anything excepting Buffs your flying it wrong...err or landing.;)

If your taking pilot wounds they are not coming through the front  armoured glass,but the unarmoured canopy.;)
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Offline Larry

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so 262 is built like a zeke for realism or gameplay?
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2007, 05:30:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hazzer
I don't agree,the 262 is in no way like any zero in this game;flown as it should be it's deadly,I've only lost one and that was my flying ,not the frragile 262,and i've escaped and landed comfortably with one engine.By the way the 262 is an interceptor not a dogfighter.get in quick hit hard leave..if your taking hit's from anything excepting Buffs your flying it wrong...err or landing.;)

If your taking pilot wounds they are not coming through the front  armoured glass,but the unarmoured canopy.;)



The Me262 is a fighter. The only intercepter in the game that I know of are the Me163 and La7. I have taken pilot wounds many times attacking buffs. Unless they were those "magic kennedy bullets" they all hit the armored glass. One ping from AAA gets my engine oil about 95% of the time. I even had a A6M2 zoom up with me and was at 600 out for about 5-8 secs where then I heard 3 pings and I was sitting in the tower.
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Offline Hazzer

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so 262 is built like a zeke for realism or gameplay?
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2007, 06:03:50 AM »
If an a6m shoots you down in a 262,you deserve to die! Unless you are landing.S/A.
                 
                   Dog Fighting in a 262 is madness even against some other jets,IT's an interceptor,oh and are 262 is more reliable than the real thing.:aok



  ATTACKNG  BUFFS,is  the only thing a 262 jockey should worry about,and that not too much.;)
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Offline bozon

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so 262 is built like a zeke for realism or gameplay?
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2007, 06:27:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hazzer
... oh and are 262 is more reliable than the real thing.:aok

It would have been funny if they had flameouts and engine fires implemented :)

I don't care about their damage model. I only ask for their center-of-gravity to be moved backwards like in the Mosquito.
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Offline Larry

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so 262 is built like a zeke for realism or gameplay?
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2007, 06:48:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hazzer
If an a6m shoots you down in a 262,you deserve to die! Unless you are landing.S/A. Dog Fighting in a 262 is madness even against some other jets,IT's an interceptor,oh and are 262 is more reliable than the real thing.
ATTACKNG  BUFFS,is  the only thing a 262 jockey should worry about,and that not too much.;)



I was about 5K above an La7 and a A6M2 I went down on the La and watched the A6M hard turn to get on my six and just stay there while I was at about 500 going back up. He stayed 600 out untill I died. I was even in a tempest the other day and had a co-alt Ki84 at 15k. I dove down with the speed bar off the chart which is about 510mph and the Ki84 stayed 800 off me then and took off one of my flaps untill a 190 came down on me.

The Me262 is a fighter, but you CAN say that all german planes '42 and on were"intercepors" but they wernt made to be one. Me262s were made to kill fighters, but by the time they were made they were attacking bombers as well. When I fly the Me262 I dont even attack bombers anymore because the "armored glass" isnt armored. Iv goten pilot wounds diving in on them when I was 1000 out and started blacking out before I passed them.
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Offline doc1kelley

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Re: Re: so 262 is built like a zeke for realism or gameplay?
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2007, 09:12:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lusche
Don't share your view. My 262 survived a few 20mm hits today and lost only one airleron. As long as the engines are not hit, the 262 is not more fragile than other planes.
A6M2 on the other hand start to burn when you just look at them...


Lol but those darned things burn like a candle and burn and burn for what seems like 20 minutes.

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Offline wetrat

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so 262 is built like a zeke for realism or gameplay?
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2007, 04:28:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hazzer
I don't agree,the 262 is in no way like any zero in this game;flown as it should be it's deadly,I've only lost one and that was my flying ,not the frragile 262,and i've escaped and landed comfortably with one engine.By the way the 262 is an interceptor not a dogfighter.get in quick hit hard leave..if your taking hit's from anything excepting Buffs your flying it wrong...err or landing.;)
Somehow I doubt your 262 expertise is anything approaching that of Fester (Citabria) :rolleyes:
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Offline Krusty

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so 262 is built like a zeke for realism or gameplay?
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2007, 04:32:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hazzer
i've escaped and landed comfortably with one engine.


Define "escaped"??

If anybody chases you, and you're on 1 engine, you're dead. You cannot outrun a yak, a p51, hardly anything if you've lost an engine in this plane. I know this for a fact, as I've been run down many times with 1 engine dead (because they die too easily, part of the original post).

Only time you can "escape" with 1 engine dead is when nobody chases you.

Offline EagleDNY

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so 262 is built like a zeke for realism or gameplay?
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2007, 05:06:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Larry
The Me262 is a fighter. The only intercepter in the game that I know of are the Me163 and La7. I have taken pilot wounds many times attacking buffs. Unless they were those "magic kennedy bullets" they all hit the armored glass. One ping from AAA gets my engine oil about 95% of the time. I even had a A6M2 zoom up with me and was at 600 out for about 5-8 secs where then I heard 3 pings and I was sitting in the tower.


If you are in AAA in a 262, you are in the wrong place with it.  Early jet engines ARE fragile - these aren't the Allisons that you can blow a 5" hole through the crankcase and still have it run for 10 minutes.  These are 8600rpm turning turbines, made with cheap materials by low-skilled labor - any damage is bad and likely to kill the engine.  

The miracle is that is doesn't shred itself and blow you to bits instantly.  Given that .50 cal will penetrate the plate armor on an APC, why shouldn't it blast right through the cheap aluminum on a 262 engine casing?  A couple hits (couple half inch holes) later, all your lubricating oil is leaking out, or you lose turbine blades and the engine dies.  Multiply this damage scenario out by 20mm, or 37mm ack and I'd expect a single hit to wack an engine.  Landing a 30mm tater on a 262 wing is instant death (in our 262 vs 262 battles) as it should be.

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Offline Krusty

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so 262 is built like a zeke for realism or gameplay?
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2007, 05:14:20 PM »
You can't make a jet engine out of aluminum. Problems with development and production rates of the early jet engines were because the stronger metals were scarcer, harder to work with. They were, however, much stronger than aluminum.

Granted, you take some damage it's going to show, but there have been cases where modern engines with much larger fans (airliners) damage quite a few blades from a bird intake or something, and despite being 20x larger and fighting many times the forces early WW2 engines contained, they don't shred themselves apart instantly.

Historically, jet engines were more reliable than props. Less moving parts, less parts in general, much less to go wrong.

I don't know what types of metal were used, or how strong a bullet you need to pierce the engine casing, but simply sucking a bullet into the fan blades shouldn't destroy the engine, nor should a glancing blow take out your oil instantly. There wasn't that much place where the oil was stored, and I would suspect the "hit zone" for causing an oil leak was very small.

In this game it's about half the size of the plane!

I don't think the 262 is modeled right, personally. FM and DM need work, IMO.

Offline Lusche

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so 262 is built like a zeke for realism or gameplay?
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2007, 05:21:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty

Historically, jet engines were more reliable than props. Less moving parts, less parts in general, much less to go wrong.


This does not holds true for the early German designs which were VERY prone to breakdown even without any interference. The jets were very a very new technology extremely rushed into production and, as already pointed out, build under very problematic circumstances with regard to worker & raw material qualities. And they vere sensitive to mishandling by the pilot.


The Jumo 004 had an average service life of only between 10-20 hours
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Offline Krusty

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so 262 is built like a zeke for realism or gameplay?
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2007, 05:23:37 PM »
Given that, but considering we also don't have this modeled into AH (for any plane that had engine problems), I still don't think the 262 is modeled properly for Aces High.

Offline EagleDNY

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so 262 is built like a zeke for realism or gameplay?
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2007, 07:47:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
You can't make a jet engine out of aluminum. Problems with development and production rates of the early jet engines were because the stronger metals were scarcer, harder to work with. They were, however, much stronger than aluminum.

Historically, jet engines were more reliable than props. Less moving parts, less parts in general, much less to go wrong.

I don't know what types of metal were used, or how strong a bullet you need to pierce the engine casing, but simply sucking a bullet into the fan blades shouldn't destroy the engine, nor should a glancing blow take out your oil instantly. There wasn't that much place where the oil was stored, and I would suspect the "hit zone" for causing an oil leak was very small.

In this game it's about half the size of the plane!

I don't think the 262 is modeled right, personally. FM and DM need work, IMO.


(This comes from my 262 books from the Smithsonian restoration project):
The backbone of the Jumo 004 is a complex aluminum casting which provided the engine attachment points, supported the compressor case, the combustion chamber assembly, the turbine nozzle, turbine bearings, and finally the entire exhaust system.  
Each of the six combustion chambers was built up of 3 major components - a mild steel outer casing, the flame tube, and a corrugated, aluminized steel liner which ducted cooling air through the outer casing.  
Hot gas was ducted to the 61 blade turbine wheel.  The turbine wheel was intended from the beginning to have hollow air cooled blades, but the pressure of time had dictated that the first versions have solid turbine blades.  The blade was formed from conically rolled sheet metal by folding it and welding it at the trailing edge.  The material used, "cromadur" required no precious nickel, was easier to produce, and was more reliable in operation...
The engine burned the noxious smelling german j-2 fuel, which was derived from brown coal.  

From the engine breakdown notes:
The eight stage compressor has an amazing variety of types of materials and finishes, ranging from stamped aluminum to zinc-coated sheet steel.  Even within a single motor variations were found in the materials and method of assembly of stator blades...


------------
If you look at a cutaway of the Jumo 004, you see the oil tank is located right at the front of the engine near the starter motor, between the inner & outer castings.  A bullet or cannon shell hitting the front portion of the nacelle would have a good chance of either hitting the oil tank or one of the lines leading away from it (and there are many).  

As far as the pilot wounding issue goes - I think the damage model needs adjusting there.  The 262 cockpit is a steel bathtub which is completely fitted out with controls, instruments, seat & so on.  It is attached to the fuselage by 2 solid web aluminum alloy bulkheads, and is boxed in fore & aft by the 2 198 gallon armored fuel tanks.  It was designed this way so that later production models would be suitable for pressurization.  
IMHO it looks like it would be difficult to get a round into cockpit the from forward or rear areas, and a 90 degree hit from the side at speed would be awful lucky - although I suppose through the canopy can always be assumed.  

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Offline Krusty

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so 262 is built like a zeke for realism or gameplay?
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2007, 10:55:29 PM »
Layer of steel, aluminum casting, and another layer of steel = pretty damn near bulletproof to me!

Yeah, those PWs are absurd! You're looking directly at your attacker most of the time and take a pilot wound WITHOUT taking any bulletholes to the canopy! Anywhere!

Offline B@tfinkV

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so 262 is built like a zeke for realism or gameplay?
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2007, 11:22:35 PM »
my only problem with the 262 is that i never fly one for more than 10 mins without being disconected. i can fly for 5 hours straight in any other plane and never disco once, soon as its a tiger or a 262 i lose connection.

wtf HTC?
do you just hate me or something?
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