What If?

[Serenity]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Actually, you are, as usual, COMPLETELY wrong. According to Tony Levier, the rest of the Lockheed test pilots, and most of the experienced combat pilots who actually FLEW the plane, compression never occurred below 20,000 feet. Try diving a P-38 in AH, and you'll find that it buffets and refuses to respond to the controls WELL under 20,000 feet. You CAN compress a P-38 in a power on dive below 20,000 feet in AH, something the real pilots said just did not happen.

By the way, you have absolutely NO concept of how compression actually effects a P-38. It does not "suddenly nose down into an inverted dive leading to catastrophic failure". First of all, about 90% of the P-38's lost in terminal compression dives hit the ground intact, according to the accident reports. Second, according to the same reports, about 90% of those accidents were caused by inexperienced pilots who decided to see if they could exceed the placarded speeds. Third, with proper pilot input, the P-38 would recover from a compression dive, provided a panicked pilot who did not know how to recover did not fly it into the ground in error.

Yep. Had my granddad read into this one, (He flew an early '38 as a testpilot during the war, though for fun, not on the clocks). According to him, while the P-38 DID compress SOMEWHAT easily, its not near as bad as he is making it out, and any pilot who could keep his head would have the bird back where she should be in short order.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Actually, you are, as usual, COMPLETELY wrong. According to Tony Levier, the rest of the Lockheed test pilots, and most of the experienced combat pilots who actually FLEW the plane, compression never occurred below 20,000 feet. Try diving a P-38 in AH, and you'll find that it buffets and refuses to respond to the controls WELL under 20,000 feet. You CAN compress a P-38 in a power on dive below 20,000 feet in AH, something the real pilots said just did not happen.

By the way, you have absolutely NO concept of how compression actually effects a P-38. It does not "suddenly nose down into an inverted dive leading to catastrophic failure". First of all, about 90% of the P-38's lost in terminal compression dives hit the ground intact, according to the accident reports. Second, according to the same reports, about 90% of those accidents were caused by inexperienced pilots who decided to see if they could exceed the placarded speeds. Third, with proper pilot input, the P-38 would recover from a compression dive, provided a panicked pilot who did not know how to recover did not fly it into the ground in error.

Why don’t you read what I actually write? Where did I mention 20,000 feet? I never said "suddenly nose down into an inverted dive leading to catastrophic failure", I said “suddenly nosed down into an inverted dive which could lead to catastrophic structural failure”.

Tell me that the AH P-38 behaves like the real one:

From p-38online:

“A typical dive of the P-38 from high altitudes would always experience compressibility. Starting from 36,000 ft., the P-38 would rapidly approach the Mach .675 (445 mph true airspeed). At this point, the airflow going over the wing exceeds Mach 1. A shockwave is created, thus breaking up the airflow equaling a loss of lift. The shockwave destroys the pressure difference between the upper and lower wing, and disrupts the ability for the aircraft to sustain flight. As the lift decreases, the airflow moving back from the wing also changes in its form and pattern. Normal downwash aft of the wing towards the tail begins to deteriorate. The airflow across the tail shifts from normal to a condition where there is now a greater upload, of lifting force, on the tail itself. With the greater uploading force applied to the tail, the nose of the aircraft wants to nose down even more, which creates a steeper and faster dive. As the aircraft approaches the vertical line, it begins to tuck under and starts a high-speed outside loop. At this point, the airframe is at the greatest point of structural failure. When the angle of attack increases during the dive, it also increases for the tail. The resulting effect is that the pilot cannot move the controls because tremendous force is required to operate the aircraft. The pilot is simply a passenger during this period. Shockwaves become shock fronts, which decrease the lift no matter what the pilot tries to do. Instead of smooth airflow over the wing, it is extremely turbulent, and strikes the tail with great force. The aircraft can only recover when it enters lower, denser atmosphere lower to the ground.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Read something besides p-38 online for crying out loud.

And yes, in AH, ABOVE 20,000 feet, the P-38 WILL compress something somewhat similar to what you describe. PROVIDED you FORCE it to. BELOW 20,000 feet, it simply does not have the time, speed, or altitude needed to accelerate to the point of doing what you seem to think it should. What you don't seem to grasp is that the plane simply just does not automatically compress, in AH or in real life. You have to keep pushing it into it. In order to achieve a terminal compression dive, in real life you had to fly it DEEP into the buffeting, not just experience a slight buffeting. After several seconds of buffeting, IF you kept the power on, and IF you kept pushing the plane into it, you could enter a terminal compression dive. You can EASILY do this from BELOW 20,000 feet, where it really wasn't possible in real life. Never mind what you can do from ABOVE 20,000 feet, where it WAS possible in real life. And remember, most flying in AH is done WELL below 20,000 feet.

Compression is OVER modeled in AH, below 20,000 feet, when you consider what was said by, Robin Olds, Art Heiden, Stan Richardson, and Jack Ilfrey. And what they said was the compression was not a factor in combat so long as you started your dive below 25,000 feet. All were top rated combat pilots, Olds and Ilfrey were both aces in the P-38. I think they'd know.

Other than the over effect below 20,000 feet, AH models P-38 compression much as it should. You are supposed to have to force the plane to compress by ignoring both the placarded warnings AND all the warning signs the plane gives you WELL before you reach the point of no return, where a terminal dive is a sure thing. And you do. Why do you think the P-38L, the only P-38 with dive flaps, augers the most in AH? It's simple. Because people use it as an ordnance dump truck, and they dive from 15,000 feet and auger just from starting to enter compression.

[Viking]

Did this happen in real life or not? Is this modelled in AH or not?

"With the greater uploading force applied to the tail, the nose of the aircraft wants to nose down even more, which creates a steeper and faster dive. As the aircraft approaches the vertical line, it begins to tuck under and starts a high-speed outside loop. At this point, the airframe is at the greatest point of structural failure."

[Benny Moore]

I wonder how many people know that P-38's were used as dive bombers years before dive flaps showed up.  Of course Hilts does, and I do.  But most people say, "NUH-UH!" when I tell them that.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Viking
Did this happen in real life or not? Is this modelled in AH or not?

"With the greater uploading force applied to the tail, the nose of the aircraft wants to nose down even more, which creates a steeper and faster dive. As the aircraft approaches the vertical line, it begins to tuck under and starts a high-speed outside loop. At this point, the airframe is at the greatest point of structural failure."

What you describe is a terminal velocity dive, it can ONLY be done, according to the pilots I know, in a POWER ON dive, steeper than 45 degrees, and from above 25,000 feet. THOSE are the conditions required to achieve the reaction you describe. In other words, you HAVE to FORCE it. And YES, if you FORCE it, it will happen in AH. I've done it a few times just to see what happens.

[Viking]

So what you're saying is that in Aces High if you dive from say 35,000 feet with power on the P-38 will "tuck under" past the vertical and end up in an inverted dive?

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

I have taken a P-38 in AH, in a power on dive, at an angle of around 45 degrees, from around 25,000 feet, and forced it to "mach tuck", the term for what you describe. And you can easily compress in a power on dive to the point where recovery is nearly impossible, even without mach tuck. Once again, I repeat, in order to truly compress, you MUST ignore ALL the warnings, and continue well into severe buffeting and continue to force the plane down, before you reach the point of no return, or a terminal compression dive. That's how it worked in real life. The plane did NOT just suddenly, with little warning, tuck under and auger.

[Kweassa]

Viking, you can experiment it yourself. within 10 seconds of logging onto the game. Go to the training area, on the "bomber training" zone. They have an mid-air spawn there. I've tested some planes out there and discovered some neat things.

[Viking]

Cool. Didn't know they had modeled it.



Kweassa, I'm afraid I can't, not for the better part of a fortnight. Next week will even be VikingFree(TM) week on the bbs as I'm going to the summer house (no intardnet).

[Makoyouidiot]

Originally posted by Wes14
Rv8 with a supercharged Griffon engine?

P-38 with Me-262 like engines?

B29 with the firefly gun on the bottom on a turret instead of nooky?

jeep with a supercharged Griffon engine and a monster truck tire setup?

Spit16 with a self destruct instead of weapons?

B17 with a 2,000watt surround sound stereo system?

Bf-110 with Me-163 engines?

Spitfire with a Glouster Meteor engine?

Bf-109 with spinners?

P-38 and P-51 with supercharged Rolls-Royce Gryphon engines, and all-cannon armament

[Makoyouidiot]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I have taken a P-38 in AH, in a power on dive, at an angle of around 45 degrees, from around 25,000 feet, and forced it to "mach tuck", the term for what you describe. And you can easily compress in a power on dive to the point where recovery is nearly impossible, even without mach tuck. Once again, I repeat, in order to truly compress, you MUST ignore ALL the warnings, and continue well into severe buffeting and continue to force the plane down, before you reach the point of no return, or a terminal compression dive. That's how it worked in real life. The plane did NOT just suddenly, with little warning, tuck under and auger.

Aren't we a bit off subject?

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by leitwolf
The Problem with the P-51 and P-51A was not the Allison engine itself but rather the supercharger. Rolls Royce Merlin installations were way ahead in this department and this brought a huge improvement for the P-51B.

The P-38, however, wouldn't have improved much by putting Merlins in it, its superchargers were on par with that of RR.. much more sensible idea to use Packards Merlin production in a fighter which had to gain so much from it like the Mustang.

The biggest leap for the P-38 would've been the prop from the P-38K..

For the P-38K itself to have been produced would have been a start. Then the L should have gotten the next logical upgrade in engine, a turbocharged version of the engines developed for the P-82, and the next logical upgrade in propeller, the big four blade paddle prop from the late P-47. I suppose switching the gun package to four 20mm cannons with 250 rounds each wouldn't have hurt. None of that is anything earth shaking, imaginary, implausible, or pie in the sky, but rather all of it is a matter of logical progression.

[gripen]

Well, there is a chapter in the "Vee's for Victory" about advanced P-38 developements and these were based on V-1710s with mechanical auxilary stage.

[DiabloTX]

Actually, THIS is the best P-38 ever built:

A P-38L was modified by Hindustan Aeronautics in India as a fast VIP transport, with a comfortable seat in the nose, leather-lined walls, accommodations for refreshments and a glazed nose to give the passenger a spectacular view.

Now THAT'S VIP treatment!