Fight gas price gouging

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by Bodhi
Cripes a'mighty....  you people are so overeacting to the price of gasoline.  What are you going to do when it hits $5/gallon and higher?  Not drive is what.  

You want to see people find an alternative source of energy, raise gas to $8/gallon.  Then the new source will come a running really fast.

Lastly, why not ask the fed and state governments to lay off their rediculous tax on gasoline.  That alone would amount to a $.70 cent/gallon savings in most places.

Problems here are that gas at $5 to $8 a gallon in a relatively short period of time results in economic chaos across the country.  Inflation across the board.  Lay offs and unemployment across whole industries like Restaurants, Tourism, Transportation, Airlines.  At some point, the economy cannot absorb the increase and you get a runaway train for an economy.  If the price of oil continues to increase at a much slower pace, the economy can adjust.

Also, for the Government to cut the gas tax would mean a huge net lose of funds; either the Government ends up borrowing huge amounts of money, or many programs end up getting cut.  And they'd rather really just keep the money (and point at the profits the oil companies makes instead of their larger tax collections).

In the end, it still ends up as political suicide on the part of the politician. "Gentlemen!  We've gotta save our phoney-baloney jobs!"

[ROC]

tedrbr, you don't ask the people , you just do it, send them the ration books.

Umm, no you don't.

Want to remove the dependence of Foreign Oil?  Drill Domestic.  Do you people realize that China drills in the Gulf but due to our environmental friends WE Can't?  The definition of Stupid keeps expanding.

[Rolex]

If gas keeps going up in the US, it'll be almost as expensive as bottled water.

What a disgraceful thing to say, lazysailor.

[OdinGrunherze]

Originally posted by ROC
Surely we don't all agree.

You guys won't like socialism, you won't like it one darn bit, but just keep begging for it, you're making headway.

Fuel is Power.  Many of you are allowing the debate to go right over your heads.  Gas is Cheap, heck a bottled water and can of soda cost more, where's the outrage there?  The "leaders" are fueling your fight over fuel prices so you are distracted over the real fight, and that's the Freedom to do as you please.  This is America, and Industrial Nation, and we travel, we build, and we grow.  We need Fuel to do this, and the Only way to stop the nation is to cut off our fuel.  They cannot do it militarily, so they will twist the debate and cause a bunch of week kneed people to cry over the cost of fuel and YOU'LL do it for them.  Restricting, Rationing, Penalizing.

There is going to come a time where those of us that Do produce are going to get sick and tired of the stupidity, and then there's going to be a real problem.  Imagine the backlash when a bunch of meat eating, gun toting, SUV driving Red Blooded Americans have their fill of unarmed vegan prius driving nannies.

For the moment, to each his own, drive,eat what you want.  You're starting to annoy us though, just so you know.  The clear difference is some of us don't care what you do, just don't tell me what to do.  Some of you are crossing the line, tread lightly.

hehe, I had this same conversation with my mom in law after she was complaining about gas, Man did that make for an exciting mothers day lmao Mom's mouth gaping, eyes wide with horror.  Nephews going YA YA YA

ROC
The closet commies aren't going to stop now... They've made tremendous progress turning our kids into good little pacifist weenies in their socialist indoctrination centers... (public schools)....So when the time comes to settle the score......   I'll be out there with ya, rifle in hand....

OG.... 20yrs USMC,  Always faithful is not just a slogan to ME!!!!

[lasersailor184]

Originally posted by Rolex
If gas keeps going up in the US, it'll be almost as expensive as bottled water.

What a disgraceful thing to say, lazysailor.

Hey.  If you can't stand the heat...

[Torque]

like the price at the pumps reflects the true cost of a gallon of gas.

maybe it's time to factor in all they other hidden costs. like the military budget to secure resources, the cost of 9/11, the long tern costs of carrying for disable vets, not to mention that trillion dollar bar tab the neo-clowns ran up in their attempts to pirate iraqi oil reserves.

sheesh...you guys probably pay more that anyone else when it comes down to it.

besides govts don't regulate oil companies, oil companies regulate govts, the dulles bros proved that back in wwii, right charon...?

[Charon]

besides govts don't regulate oil companies, oil companies regulate govts, the dulles bros proved that back in wwii, right charon...?

Please expand. I'm not that familiar with any oil angle in the whole Dulles/Bush/Nazis thing.

[Gumbeau]

Wow. Repo man references.

Pretty cool.

Silly thread but cool avatar Charon.

[Charon]

The life of a repo man avatar is always intense

Charon

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Torque
like the price at the pumps reflects the true cost of a gallon of gas.

maybe it's time to factor in all they other hidden costs. like the military budget to secure resources, the cost of 9/11, the long tern costs of carrying for disable vets, not to mention that trillion dollar bar tab the neo-clowns ran up in their attempts to pirate iraqi oil reserves.

sheesh...you guys probably pay more that anyone else when it comes down to it.

besides govts don't regulate oil companies, oil companies regulate govts, the dulles bros proved that back in wwii, right charon...?

[Silat]

The problem is that the oil companies are manipulating the market through
selective refinery 'maintenance shutdowns'.  On top of the below article I
was watching CNBC and a gasoline trader said anybody who watches the market
realizes that supply has been manipulated to keep prices up.

Gas prices reflect refinery gouging

By: CHARLES LANGLEY - for the North County Times
Big Oil's earnings statements read more like a confession than a profit
report.

As North County's gas prices edge toward $3.50 a gallon, consumers should
know that gasoline now costs 11 cents more than it did last year when oil
was selling for $11 more per barrel. For example, on Thursday, the North
County Times reported that the average price of gasoline was $3.41 a gallon.
Meanwhile, the price of oil was $63 a barrel. On the same day last year, the
price of oil was $74 a barrel, and gasoline cost just $3.30 a gallon
(source: U.S. Department of Energy).
Something is terribly wrong when oil prices drop and the cost of gas goes
up. Big Oil says it is all about "supply and demand," but the ugly truth is
that North County residents are getting gouged deeply. Here's why: An $11
decrease in the cost of oil should mean a price cut of 26 cents from last
year's price of $3.30 a gallon. The industry says it "struggles" to keep up
with demand for gasoline, but according to the California State Board of
Equalization, gasoline demand in the last half of 2006 was 1 percent lower
even though there are more drivers on the road. While the report does show a
1 percent bump in gasoline consumption during January 2007, the cost of
gasoline in North County averaged $2.53 a gallon ---- almost a dollar less
than it does now.

What has happened is that the oil companies have shifted their profits
centers from the "upstream" sector (oil and drilling) to the "downstream,"
which is refining. In the meantime, retailers are limited to an average
profit of about a nickel a gallon.

Last week, Big Oil's first-quarter profit reports came rolling in with more
bad news for consumers. On April 26, Exxon/Mobil reported that even though
it produced less product than last year, it earned profits of 10 percent on
unusually high refinery margins (source: MarketWatch) and that the margins
were so high that the company "overcame lower crude oil and natural gas
prices" (source: Associated Press).

The following day, April 27, Chevron joined the obscene profit bandwagon by
announcing that it earned first-quarter profits of 18 percent, much of it on
increased refining margins, even though the company produced less gasoline
than last year (source: Associated Press, International Herald-Tribune).
Meanwhile, Valero announced that it made the highest first-quarter profits
in the company's history. Valero Chairman Bill Klesse said longer downtimes
for planned refinery maintenance helped create the shortages that reaped
record-shattering profits (source: San Antonio Business Journal). And on
Thursday, Shell announced that despite "unusually low seasonal gas demand,"
that "better refining margins, particularly in the U.S. West Coast," drove
profits sharply higher (source: MarketWatch.)

Bottom line: These aren't "profit reports," they are confessions.

Exxon didn't "overcome" low oil prices, as the reports suggest. It gouged
its way to higher profits due to an almost complete lack of competition at
the refinery level. And so did Chevron, Shell and Valero. They did it by
restricting supply, panicking the markets, and intentionally underproducing
gasoline.

Charles Langley is a gasoline analyst for UCAN, the San Diego-based Utility
Consumers' Action Network. He also collects gas-price data for the North
County Times. He edited UCAN's free 32-page guide, the "Guzzler Buster: 127
Secrets to Squeezing More Miles From Each Gallon." UCAN's "Guzzler Buster"
is available free of charge to San Diego County residents who visit the UCAN
Web site at http://www.ucan.org.

[Silat]

More evidence from the same guy.


One good flare-up at a major California refinery is worth an extra dime of
profit per gallon at the wholesale level, and the refineries know it. This
spring, a host of highly questionable refinery shutdowns helped drive our
gas prices to the highest they've ever been in April. Shell, for example,
claimed that on Sunday, March 3, a raccoon singlehandedly shut down its
massive Wilmington, California refinery after tripping a power line that
disrupted the supply for ten seconds. Meanwhile, at almost exactly the same
time, an opussum also managed to shut off power to Exxon/Mobil's Torrance
refinery (source: Reuters).
The story does not mention if these critters were working as a team causing
problems within hours of each other. But needless to say, as excuses go,
both of these are right up there with "The dog ate my oil well." Thanks to
both of those SNAFUS, the price of San Diego gas prices surged by 8¢ in less
than 36 hours and by 25¢ in the following four days.

[bj229r]

I just found out yesterday that we IMPORT gasoline, as there are times when refinery capacity simply isn't enough, like in the spring during the switch-over to all the odd-type fuels that various states require  (haven't built one in 3 decades +..seems reasonable) The guy said it takes about 5-7 years to get the refinery online, partly due to the frightful EPA/red tape stuff, and a total of TWENTY years to break even..... what would be the motivation for a company to ever build one?

[Charon]

I was watching CNBC and a gasoline trader said anybody who watches the market realizes that supply has been manipulated to keep prices up.

Traders have been under serious investigations by congress and other groups relative to the role thy play in deciding crude oil and gasoline prices, particularly in volatility situations. It was a trader after Katrina who was quoted saying: "I can take the rest of the year off..." HARDLY an impartial source and a group that likes the attention focused elsewhere.

Something is terribly wrong when oil prices drop and the cost of gas goes up. Big Oil says it is all about "supply and demand," but the ugly truth is
that North County residents are getting gouged deeply. Here's why: An $11
decrease in the cost of oil should mean a price cut of 26 cents from last
year's price of $3.30 a gallon. The industry says it "struggles" to keep up
with demand for gasoline, but according to the California State Board of
Equalization, gasoline demand in the last half of 2006 was 1 percent lower
even though there are more drivers on the road. While the report does show a 1 percent bump in gasoline consumption during January 2007, the cost of
gasoline in North County averaged $2.53 a gallon ---- almost a dollar less
than it does now.

This shows a total lack of understanding of the infrastructure, or at best an inability to use critical thought. or a willingness to spin to support a bias.  He ignores the winter summer blend regulations and the fact that the while crude sets the core gasoline price, refining and distribution impact the price volatility (major swings in price). He does seem to connect that dot below, in isolation.

What has happened is that the oil companies have shifted their profits centers from the "upstream" sector (oil and drilling) to the "downstream," which is refining. In the meantime, retailers are limited to an average profit of about a nickel a gallon.

LOL. The exact opposite. Retailer's aren't making out, that part is true, and while refiners are enjoying an average profit better than the very low 5 percent they enjoyed during much of the 1990s the impact on your gallon of gasoline is entirely comparable to the taxes portion INCLUDING both costs and profits (and far, far lower than the base crude cost).
http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/gasolinepricesprimer/eia1_2005primerM.html

Last week, Big Oil's first-quarter profit reports came rolling in with more bad news for consumers. On April 26, Exxon/Mobil reported that even though it produced less product than last year, it earned profits of 10 percent on unusually high refinery margins (source: MarketWatch) and that the margins were so high that the company "overcame lower crude oil and natural gas prices" (source: Associated Press). ...
The following day, April 27, Chevron joined the obscene profit bandwagon by
announcing that it earned first-quarter profits of 18 percent, much of it on
increased refining margins, even though the company produced less gasoline
than last year (source: Associated Press, International Herald-Tribune).
Meanwhile, Valero announced that it made the highest first-quarter profits
in the company's history. Valero Chairman Bill Klesse said longer downtimes
for planned refinery maintenance helped create the shortages that reaped
record-shattering profits (source: San Antonio Business Journal). And on
Thursday, Shell announced that despite "unusually low seasonal gas demand,"that "better refining margins, particularly in the U.S. West Coast," droveprofits sharply higher (source: MarketWatch.)
Bottom line: These aren't "profit reports," they are confessions.

Thats funny, and very selective by a dedicated anti-petroleum advocate. As I've stated before, if it's your refinery that is down you don't make the money. For example:

Sunoco Chairman and Chief Executive Officer John Drosdick, in a note accompanying the report, blamed the weak 2006 fourth quarter on a combination of seasonal declines in gasoline margins and unseasonably warm weather in the eastern U.S., which put a damper on heating-oil demand.
Maintenance and unscheduled repair outages at the company's refineries also cut the volume of fuel available to the market by about 5 million barrels during the quarter, he said.
"Retail Marketing had a loss of $11 million in the fourth quarter as retail gasoline prices declined and squeezed margins significantly versus record third-quarter levels," Drosdick added. Sunoco posted a $25 million profit from the same business a year ago.

1. You have to switch over gasoline blends for the Clean Air act in much of the country in the spring - check
2. You have to perform maintenance at some point - check
3. Doing both costs the company money, so doing maintenance at the same time minimizes the impact on the company and it's customers - check
4. You have to let "winter" gasoline stockpiles run down and be replaced with "summer" gasoline by certain dates or the EPA gets testy - check
5. On-hand supplies will be low during the transition - check
6. Unfortunately, spring and summer driving season starts while supply is at it's lowest and refining is at about 100 percent capacity - check
7. ANYTHING that happens anywhere will trigger a panic/greed reaction at best among traders, and perhaps real problem either locally or nationally in supply - check

One good flare-up at a major California refinery is worth an extra dime of profit per gallon at the wholesale level, and the refineries know it. This
spring, a host of highly questionable refinery shutdowns helped drive our
gas prices to the highest they've ever been in April. Shell, for example,
claimed that on Sunday, March 3, a raccoon singlehandedly shut down its
massive Wilmington, California refinery after tripping a power line that
disrupted the supply for ten seconds. Meanwhile, at almost exactly the same
time, an opussum also managed to shut off power to Exxon/Mobil's Torrance
refinery (source: Reuters).
The story does not mention if these critters were working as a team causing
problems within hours of each other. But needless to say, as excuses go,
both of these are right up there with "The dog ate my oil well." Thanks to
both of those SNAFUS, the price of San Diego gas prices surged by 8¢ in less
than 36 hours and by 25¢ in the following four days.

The funny thing is, the FTC runs regular investigations of the industry. Politically motivated by individuals who could become president if their investigation generates fire to go with the smoke. So far, nothing UnAmerican, un free market or even unusual from a capitalism standpoint. **** happens.

And just who is this "expert" again?

Charles Langley is a gasoline analyst for UCAN, the San Diego-based Utility Consumers' Action Network.

The problem is, that pseudo-communists like this guy get a ready market for their ill informed economic screeds since gasoline is an emotional issue. After all, paying $100 to fill that hummer, bought after a decade of unnaturally low gasoline prices led to a Tail-fin revival, just has to be somebody else's fault. BTW, he makes about 100 percent of his personal profit by having such opinions.

Charon

[bj229r]

The US has been having this argument every spring for a good 15 years, and every spring it's determined that an evil cabal is manipulating the price of gas, which is just a volatile commodity  . I remember in 1990 the DAY Saddam rolled into Kuwait the price went up a dime-- but the larger picture is that just because they paid a lower price for the gas already in the ground, said gas STILL became instantly worth a LOT more when the world's largest oil reserve became threatened. Mebbe if the 60-cent-a-gallon tax was rescinded, the price would be more palatable.

The left in this country WANTS us to consume less gas, and raising the price would seem to be the ticket, (Thats their approach with cigarettes, via taxes) but the only downside is that the evil oil companies STILL get to make money...DAMN them!