Author Topic: merge question (Read 1207 times)

CAP1 · « **on:** June 01, 2007, 04:19:33 PM »

i think i might be another to beat a dead horse here, but something struck me last night(besides bullets in my plane). when i have a co-alt merge, or only a slight alt advantage, i try to set myself up in such a way that if neither myself or the bogie turns, i'd fly right by him. plan being to turn into him and possibly get a nice side shot as he goes by(with me already heading close to his heading) or hope he makes a turn giving me a nice big profile to shoot at(not worked too often, but one can hope).
the problem is though, that obviously if i see him, he most likely sees me. here comes the dead horse!! when he sees me, he turns directly at me. if i have time, i try to re-orient myself, especially if i have altitude. once again, he turns directly at me. this happens a lot, and unless i get really lucky or fly away(which is hard sometimes as i'm mostly in slower planes)i now end up in a head on situation. if/when this happens, and i feel i can't avoid it, i then try to dive under him, pulling hard verticle at about 800 out...figuring that by the time the plane responds, he'll be just past me as i go up. again though, more ofen than not, he now doves directly at me. i've been hit this way, i've been ho'd this way. now before i get all the usual answers, this is NOT a complaint.......all i'm looking for is advice from the vets in here. what do you do when this happens? i mean, it seems nuts that so many pilots fly directly at their opponents, rather than trying to set themselves up a shot or nice fight, doesn't it? so, all you experienced guys and gals.......can i(and any other moderate to poor pilots reading this) get some pointers/tips/advice on what to do when this happens? i don't mind losing fights(happens a LOT), but i'd at least like to
HAVE a fight.

thanks everybody!!
john

dedalos · « **Reply #1 on:** June 01, 2007, 04:34:43 PM »

Are you asking how to avoid the HO? I cant hit anyone in the situations that you describe.

In any case, I always try to come in kind of sideways leting them turn on my six. Its the only way to ensure that they will try to fight. I always try to stay in a shalow turn so the speeds stay up. When they are 600 on my 6, cut throtle, roll, and hopefully they ar in front of you.

Does not work with vets since they cut throtle too, lol

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #2 on:** June 01, 2007, 05:18:05 PM »

CAP1/John

what your opponents are doing/trying to do is take away your angles advantage, now most will not even know this is what they are doing, most are indeed possibly going for a Head On merge and possible Head On shot......

doing things as barrel rolls / twisting roll while shallow diving off below and to the side ( left or right ) should keep you from getting hit, when you are setting up something as you described about angling below then pulling up while 800 out, means you are trying to set up for a lead turn. This is where you are wanting to be somewhere near perpendicular to their flight path at about the time each of you cross. If not actually acquiring their relative low 6, 7 or 5 coming thru the latter part of your lead turn......

visit http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/ for the Aces High trainers Website

and also http://www.netaces.org Hammer's personal website and read up on lead turns & merge tactics....

then get you a Training Partner and practice til exhausted on approaching with different lead turns from different angles....to try and master the exact distance out to start your seperation both in the horizontal and vertical to acquire the perfect leadturn....without seperation 1st, then the rest will not come out to well.

The opponents you have mentioned above, are taking away your seperation ( read that as angles advantage )

hope this helps

~S~

Hornet33 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 01, 2007, 05:40:06 PM »

Try to start manuvering at about 1.5 out. Start out with slow turns left and right. As the bogey get closer he will be forced to manuver his plane harder than you to keep his nose pointed at you thus bleeding his E state relative to yours. Once he is within around 800 or so a hard break turn will throw him off on the merge and you wont get shot in a HO. Keep your eye on the bogey as he passes and WAIT for him to make a move to re-engage. Once you see where he is trying to go you then can make your own move to counter, generaly with a higher E state than your enemy.

CAP1 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 01, 2007, 06:02:47 PM »

hhmm......good ideas........i didn't realize i was trying to do a lead turn...i've just been trying to find something that works for me. TC...i will visit htose websites for the info too.....but then you trainer guys are gonna see me in tA again, begging for help confused
hornet...i can give that a try as i never thought of that before.........but again, it seems as if when i wait, i die.......real quick.........hhmm...wonder if someone's trytin to make an easy kill?

just kiddin...i do appreciate all and any advice you all give!!

dedalos.....the idea of letting a bogie on my 6...i can't do that as its easy enough most of the time....i'd like to at least fight for a few seconds.....

thanks guys!
john

Roscoroo · « **Reply #5 on:** June 01, 2007, 06:38:30 PM »

here ya go Cap ... This is a crazy on the edge Duel .. Roo vs Lambo or Spits like us

BaldEagl · « **Reply #6 on:** June 01, 2007, 07:08:41 PM »

You need to maintain seperation at the merge. Unless I'm planing on taking the HO shot I'll often turn away from the approaching opponent momentarily to gain seperation (sometimes almost perpendicular to his flight path) then roll back into him in lag pursuit to maintain E, hoping to begin that turn ~800 out. This forces him to pull hard to stay with you and bleeds a lot of E from him.

If that fails I'll push the nose under him from ~800 out to take away the HO, continue to dive for a second or two while turning then pull back up either into a loop or a high yo-yo, usually out of plane with our initial merge (again, sometimes as much as 90 degrees). Since I know which side he'll be approaching from and he's usually lost sight of me turning underneath him it puts me in the drivers seat at least for a while.

There's probably better moves but these are couple that I've found work for me pretty often.

Beware on that first move though. If he doesn't bite trying to pull lead on you then he's probably a better stick going for lag pusuit and you're likely in for a classic turn fight.

wetrat · « **Reply #7 on:** June 01, 2007, 08:01:47 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by dedalos
Are you asking how to avoid the HO? I cant hit anyone in the situations that you describe.

In any case, I always try to come in kind of sideways leting them turn on my six. Its the only way to ensure that they will try to fight. I always try to stay in a shalow turn so the speeds stay up. When they are 600 on my 6, cut throtle, roll, and hopefully they ar in front of you.

Does not work with vets since they cut throtle too, lol

this is what I generally do... if I suspect a good stick, I try to set up something else, but I can't really describe any of that stuff in a coherent manner.

If you want to get them to fight, and don't want to HO, give them your 6, or at least a wing.

CAP1 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 02, 2007, 01:55:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Roscoroo
here ya go Cap ... This is a crazy on the edge Duel .. Roo vs Lambo or Spits like us

thanks....it was interesting, and i'll be watching it again from different perspectives....one question though...when you were looking foward/up, ya kept kinda "rockin" back and forth...is this for a reason? i mean it was very rapid.....just curious.......

john

FiLtH · « **Reply #9 on:** June 03, 2007, 01:21:47 AM »

Yup as ded said..bait em.

Roscoroo · « **Reply #10 on:** June 03, 2007, 01:47:06 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by CAP1
thanks....it was interesting, and i'll be watching it again from different perspectives....one question though...when you were looking foward/up, ya kept kinda "rockin" back and forth...is this for a reason? i mean it was very rapid.....just curious.......

john

i was bleeding Energy probably at that point to pull him into a off angle so he wouldnt have the shot . its also a move i do to get guys to overshoot and or lose Energy fast . remember a spit 9 has maintain more energy then a spit 5 ,once you get him to fight the spit 5's fight the spit 9 ussually falls into the Trap .

now if it was at the top of that second loop at the merge , i was on the edge of stall and trying to force my nose down just enough to regain flight ( i stalled it hard there ) that was really risky to go double loop in a spit 5 But i just barly had the energy to pull it off .

I have a tendency to rudder kick or snap turn to get into a off angle when guys jump me from above, 6 oc , ect .. its a natural reaction .. make it look like they may have the shot but if they follow they will be blacked out or compressed . The experinced guys will see this though a bleed off there speed as they come in though .. so it doesnt always work . see Dedalos post

I like that film because theres alot of great maneuvers in it performed by bolth of us . win or lose that was a great one .

texasmom · « **Reply #11 on:** June 03, 2007, 01:48:50 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Roscoroo
here ya go Cap ... This is a crazy on the edge Duel .. Roo vs Lambo or Spits like us

Dang, I couldn't open it

scottydawg · « **Reply #12 on:** June 03, 2007, 08:59:21 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Roscoroo
here ya go Cap ... This is a crazy on the edge Duel .. Roo vs Lambo or Spits like us

Rosco, I tried to watch that with the recorded views on. I almost threw up by the second merge. What the heck?

texasmom you need the AH film viewer.

dedalos · « **Reply #13 on:** June 03, 2007, 10:34:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by CAP1

dedalos.....the idea of letting a bogie on my 6...i can't do that as its easy enough most of the time....i'd like to at least fight for a few seconds.....

thanks guys!
john

Well, its different when you let them there for a second or two, and when they get there them selfs

CAP1 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 03, 2007, 10:48:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Roscoroo
i was bleeding Energy probably at that point to pull him into a off angle so he wouldnt have the shot . its also a move i do to get guys to overshoot and or lose Energy fast . remember a spit 9 has maintain more energy then a spit 5 ,once you get him to fight the spit 5's fight the spit 9 ussually falls into the Trap .

now if it was at the top of that second loop at the merge , i was on the edge of stall and trying to force my nose down just enough to regain flight ( i stalled it hard there ) that was really risky to go double loop in a spit 5 But i just barly had the energy to pull it off .

I have a tendency to rudder kick or snap turn to get into a off angle when guys jump me from above, 6 oc , ect .. its a natural reaction .. make it look like they may have the shot but if they follow they will be blacked out or compressed . The experinced guys will see this though a bleed off there speed as they come in though .. so it doesnt always work . see Dedalos post

I like that film because theres alot of great maneuvers in it performed by bolth of us . win or lose that was a great one .

yes, it was absolutley a great fight..i wasn't meaning to critize or take away from that fact..i was simply trying tounderstand it a bit better.........

thanks again!!
john