Dueling displeasures

[CAP1]

Originally posted by SkyRock
Nilen, You guys that bring up the Phallic test quotes are soo off base with how 99% of the DA fights go.  I do not DA to say, "I told you I could beat you!" after a duel, it usually ends with a "gf".  I fight in the DA because I love dogfighting and that is a place where one on ones can be set up with gentlemens rules with no interference!  Even when I go in there after a 200 purse fight to duel someone, it usually ends up in me acquiring a new friend!  The DA is a fun happy place to most of us!

now this sounds better.........someone me, and i'm sure many others would really like to fight against........don't take offense to my previous post^^^^^^^^^^^^
 i was simply stating an opinion.....

[CAP1]

Originally posted by SkyRock
Again here is the one in F4u's, notice how I am 200 below him and level but 50 mph slower.  Now how in the F is that trying to get an advantage?  

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/...603_film768.ahf



I will however let this go and I do appreciate the fact that he went to the DA in the first place.   for that

Now if some of you BK's could fill Bodhi in on how duels are fought in the DA it might help the next person he goes in there with and save them the time and humiliation of being called a cheater on the BBS!  
Thank you!

 

Mark

50mph slower= quicker tighter turn?

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Shane
well the plm with this is that it benefits the throttle chopping weenie more often than not, and takes away potential for other strategies.

i've been on all sides of this fence, i've let someone dive down to the deck, and kept alt... whine? sometimes, but hey, they chose to go down, i went up.  i've also dove down anywhere from 2k all the way to the deck, depending on variables.

see.. potential, variables, knowns.. that's a duel...

just as often, i've let people have an alt/speed advantage on me in the DA, showing them that alt/speed (potential E) is merely one tool to be used or used against.

This is why I much preferred the old DA format (killed off by the squeaker vulch tards). You get airborne from the same field in opposite directions and reverse back (calling "in") upon leaving icon range.

You don't have to worry if you're both at the same height or whether or not you have the same speed. It's basically whatever advantage you can manage (if any) within those simple constraints. Want to dive to build E to gain the initial angles edge? Go for it. You have about 15 seconds to decide on your tactics. You can maneuver anyway you desire once within icon range prior to the merge, as long as you have reversed to meet your opponent. Guns cold on the merge, guns hot when you pass behind each other's 3-9 line. It doesn't get any less complicated than this.

My regards,

Widewing

[Citabria]

bodhi why didnt you keep dueling more than what you did if the rules were not resolved.

sounds like you bailed out as soon as you could to the bbs to continue the duel here instead of fighting it out in the game.

and let me know anytime you want to duel I would like to try the even merge till after flyby rules because every duel I have ever fought has been do not exceed a certain alt and never had any problems with merge divers because it is easy to counter them. but whatever you shot headon on the merge and that pretty much qualifies you as the loser of the last round by any standards.

so you lost the duel 2 vs 1 at the worst or are tied at 1v1 since the last fight is a disqualification

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by Widewing
This is why I much preferred the old DA format (killed off by the squeaker vulch tards). You get airborne from the same field in opposite directions and reverse back (calling "in") upon leaving icon range.

You don't have to worry if you're both at the same height or whether or not you have the same speed. It's basically whatever advantage you can manage (if any) within those simple constraints. Want to dive to build E to gain the initial angles edge? Go for it. You have about 15 seconds to decide on your tactics. You can maneuver anyway you desire once within icon range prior to the merge, as long as you have reversed to meet your opponent. Guns cold on the merge, guns hot when you pass behind each other's 3-9 line. It doesn't get any less complicated than this.

My regards,

Widewing

Ahh, now THOSE are the rules I remember.  Those were the old AW rules too.  I had forgotten all about that until you posted.

The most recent rules I remember are co-alt cold until after the 3/9 pass.  The only real problem with that rule is it potentially sets up a series of HO's.

It sounds like full manouvering within icon range is a reasonable alternative.

You can probably tell I never go to the DA huh?

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by CAP1
some how i thinnk i'm gonna regret this.......but here goes anyway....and remember....i haven't flown in the DA.....often........
 anyway......you agreed to 15k alt, cold...to me that means 15k, flat and level. i understand you(skyrock)were only 300 ft below him(bodhi). but 300 ft is 300 ft..........its not hard at all to be at the desired alt exactly. 300 ft would from what i've seen, give you a BIG advantage. bodhi had more speed than you did.....he probably climbed to alt quicker, and got level sooner to build speed.  seriously.......why WERE you 300 ft low? it sounds like your more than experienced enough to be able to put ur plane exactly where ya want it. bodhi...i think you said in an earlier thread you have film too? skyrock....your spitfilm wouldn't download? did you take it off of here?
 and i'm not taking bodhi's side or yours.......but bodhi WAS at alt, and level. i am surprised to see this thread in here though.

 last thing......i don't really know if you're right or if bodhi's right.......so far though bodhi is being much more calm about this, yet you compare him to a favorite in the arenas(storch). you in your rants sound more like storch than anyone i've heard so far(you're not storch under a different account, are ya?)  seriously........calm down, and go back to DA.....have fun......thats what we're all here for, isn't it? if bodhi cheats, then work around it. if you cheat, then its obvious bodhi's gonna work around it too.
one last thing.......you(skyrock) are a good example of why i don't do DA....besides the fact that i suck.........as soon as you beat me, you'd be back in MA tellin of how ya "ownt" me. thats not fun. flyin and fightin is.

have a good night storch

Ask anyone I have ever dueled, that I came back and said 'I ownt you"  I am not that way, I say I own you before I go in the DA with you...it's called "gametalk" and some I beat in the DA just because they actually believe that "spew" on 200 about me being the "Supa Bad Owning Mo Fo!", but never do I humilate peeps I have gone to the DA with or during the DA.  Unless they are folks Like FTDEEP!  I humbly ask you to the DA for a laid back "telling" of old AH stories and friendly happy fights!  <>

Mark

[2bighorn]

Originally posted by Toad
Just where on the DA MOTD is that posted? Or is it in the dueling "help" file?

Heh, don't shoot the messenger. I'm tellin you how it is, not how it used to be...

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by Bodhi
How bout some facts.

#1.  I did not HO you on the 1st merge.  I took a quartering shot after our initial pass that you turned in to.  Call that a HO all you like.

#2.  I merged at same alt as you, about +50.  I never went above 15k, except for takeoff where I never exceeded 250 feet above.

#3.  On second merge, you were 200 feet below again.  I called you on that again.

#4.  Again, before 3rd flight I confirmed cold pass at 15K.  You agreed.

#5.  I never went 75 feet +/- of 15k on our next duel, until after you tried diving under.

#6.  You were 400+ feet below me on initial merge 1.4k out.

#7.  I got peeved and shot you in the top of your aircraft.

#8.  It degenerated into you name calling and me leaving.

If someone tells me how to post a film, I will put the whole thing up as I have it.  Otherwise I am done with this.

Bodhi, I am not trying to beat this to death, as a matter of fact, had you not posted this I wouldn't even be thinking about it.  I admit that I did not understand your rules before we dueled.  I saw you face shoot me on the first merge of first duel and thought what a dweeb, yet I continued with the duel and saddled you.  I think you sould read the post I made about not understanding and trying to meet your requirements, yet you took my lack of caring about 100 feet this and 300 feet here, that you came on the boards and tried to drag me through the mud.  I reacted in an angry and not well thought out manner, but I generally feel I was trying to be fair.  Now the cocky side of me tells me that any F'en rule you want to go by, I would still manslap then own you!!!!! So let it go or stop getting anal about how the Gotdm merge is supposed to be.  Hell, I'll give you my 6 from 1.5 and kik ur arse!
But the nice guy of me is saying I will play exactly by your merge rules and still politely dispose of your planes ability to hold lift!  
<>   Mark

[killnu]

what a gay thread.  where is that richard simmons pic when you need it.

[sntslilhlpr6601]

SkyRock owns Bodhi

end of discussion

[Sloehand]

Originally posted by SkyRock
Slap, being 100 feet above your opponent and 50mph faster is definitely and advantage.  It's not what I would want but it is considered an "E" advantage!  If I am below a guy on merge I feel comfortable!  It is how I was taught in dueling!

Sorry, Skyrock, but I cannot agree with you.  In the Head-On merge you described -- and assuming same aircraft -- the one who is only 100ft. higher and 50mph faster (as you state) does have a small E advantage, less from the altitude as Potential Energy and more from the established Kinetic Energy of speed.  

HOWEVER, this is not a pure energy fight, this is a close-on angles/turn fight which means having the proper amount of E to turn at or close to Corner Velocity for the aircraft, which results in the tighest, quickest turn, is primary, not gobs of extra smash.  (This includes considering Radial G effect in the vertical.)

Too much speed forces a wider Turn Radius (describing a larger Turn Circle) than necessary, taking longer to complete.  Being both 100 ft. higher and 50mph faster, means if both pilots have the necessary speed to complete the manuever, and both execute a vertical Lead Turn at the pass, the lower/slower aircraft will have a smaller Turn Circle due to less speed going in, and the vertical separation due to his lower altitude, and thereby be able to turn into the other's greater Turn Circle.  Therefore, the potential turning advantage is to the lower/slower aircraft, which is what this engagement is all about, at that moment.

I did not make this up, nor am I the absolute expert on all ACM.  This is a resulting consensus that comes from extensive reading and study of several expert sources on ACM.  Particularly on how speed and Radial G effects all types of turns.  

Whether this is the reason you personally go low or not, this is the reason why in the standard dueling merge most should go pilots go low, and don't generally worry about the opponent having significantly higher speed at the merge.  It can actually be a detriment.  A pilot need only concern himself with beginning and maintaining sufficient speed throughout the merge and Lead Turn manuever.

[Sloehand]

Originally posted by SkyRock
The reason why you want to be below the guy on merge is very simple.  Lets say P1 is below P2 when they pass, then both go vert.   Who will be behind who???  P1 will be behind/lower than P2!  It is much easier to follow the guys angles and predict what he is going to do If you don't have to look out your 6 constantly!  

This is nice and useful, but is NOT the primary reason.

Not to mention if you get around quick, you will have guns on the guy!  It's that simple!  I know there is more to it as far as ACM and tactics are concerned, but just in laymen's concepts, the lower guy gets the 6 position if both go up after pass!

This correct, and was what I essentially was saying, using the proper ACM concepts to do so!  Yes, this is the primary reason the lower/slower aircraft actually has the 'important' engagement advantage (turning potential) in this tactical situation.  It's about turning first and better, not holding or unleashing tremendous E.

[Sloehand]

Originally posted by Widewing
This is why I much preferred the old DA format (killed off by the squeaker vulch tards). You get airborne from the same field in opposite directions and reverse back (calling "in") upon leaving icon range.

You don't have to worry if you're both at the same height or whether or not you have the same speed. It's basically whatever advantage you can manage (if any) within those simple constraints. Want to dive to build E to gain the initial angles edge? Go for it. You have about 15 seconds to decide on your tactics. You can maneuver anyway you desire once within icon range prior to the merge, as long as you have reversed to meet your opponent. Guns cold on the merge, guns hot when you pass behind each other's 3-9 line. It doesn't get any less complicated than this.

My regards,

Widewing

I agree wholeheartedly.  The old DA was more of an asset to the whole community AND HiTech than I think they will ever understand.  It was such a good place to play that many spent 30-50% of their flying time there.  If burned out in the MA, or needed some different kind of action, one could go there and find many friendly engagements just waiting to happen.  

Learning abounded, and friendships were often made.  It was a great salve and place to fly, away from any aggrevations of the regualr arena.  Now, when the infernal ENY, Arena Cap or mind-numbing redundance of maps drives me batty, I more often logout and go read a book.

[dedalos]

Originally posted by Widewing
This is why I much preferred the old DA format (killed off by the squeaker vulch tards).

Give credit where it belongs WW.  

The DA was put back to its intended format by HT in an effort to assist the people complaining about the vulchers and remove the problems like me, 2bighorn, and a few others.

[doobs]

Originally posted by WMLute
(Troll)