yes, more questions about the HO

[toonces3]

Is anything more debated and hated than the HO on here?

Ok, I need to get this straight.  I hate getting HO'd, but I hate it even more when I'm holding my fire, being the good guy and then 200 out I get the PANG PANG PANG oil, blood and fire all over the place.  

So here's the questions.  1st, I would suggest that we agree that the first merge, 1v1, nose to nose is a full-on HO.  We all hate that.

Second, I've heard that a HO is basically if both aircraft have each other equally in their firing arc.  In other words, if I can shoot you in the face,  but you cannot bring your guns to bear on me, then I am not HO'ing you.

What about beyond that initial merge?  After a nose to nose initial merge, assuming both pilots held their fire,  is it ok to HO when passing nose to nose on the second merge?

How about the following scenario:  You're engaged 1v1.  Soon 2 other enemies are joining the fight.  You're outnumbered 3 v 1 so that everytime you maneuver from one opponent, you're facing another.  Is it ok to HO one of the enemies ON THE INITIAL MERGE in this circumstance?


I want to be clear on this because I'm getting tired of getting shot in the face holding my fire.  I always assume the guy in front of me is going to HO me at the merge and I try to maneuver to avoid it.  The best is when the guy shoots 1000 out because then I can simply scoot away.  The worst is when the guy is right on your nose before he decides to shoot.

The other night, I got shot right in the face by a very well known, very high ranked pilot...twice.  In one case, I, in a zero, followed his P-38 up into a loop.  He reversed at the top so that we passed each other vertically nose to nose, my zero nose high, his P-38 nose down, nearly vertical, and as we passed he plastered me at 200 out.  It frustrated me because I could have/would have shot him as well, but was holding my fire since we were nose on nose.  In fact, I had bumped my nose down a hair to avoid a collision.  

So, I want to be clear on the generally accepted conduct of the HO.  

Thanks,
Toonces

[Yeager]

The HO is not the problem.  The ace pilotS are.

[StuB]

The "HO" that everyone whines about is during the initial merge.

If you are moving your nose so you can avoid a  HO but the other guy keeps tracking directly into it.....I say shoot them in the face, because either they are being stupid or are they are planning to HO you instead.

Against the 38, you were past the merge when he shot you, so it wouldn't be considered a "HO".  The merge was right when you both pulled into the verticle.....once you guys were going up it was a free for all.

Of course, in real life the other guy would have tried to shoot you in the face at the merge. After all....all's fair in love an war  

Originally posted by toonces3
Is anything more debated and hated than the HO on here?

Ok, I need to get this straight.  I hate getting HO'd, but I hate it even more when I'm holding my fire, being the good guy and then 200 out I get the PANG PANG PANG oil, blood and fire all over the place.  

So here's the questions.  1st, I would suggest that we agree that the first merge, 1v1, nose to nose is a full-on HO.  We all hate that.

Second, I've heard that a HO is basically if both aircraft have each other equally in their firing arc.  In other words, if I can shoot you in the face,  but you cannot bring your guns to bear on me, then I am not HO'ing you.

What about beyond that initial merge?  After a nose to nose initial merge, assuming both pilots held their fire,  is it ok to HO when passing nose to nose on the second merge?

How about the following scenario:  You're engaged 1v1.  Soon 2 other enemies are joining the fight.  You're outnumbered 3 v 1 so that everytime you maneuver from one opponent, you're facing another.  Is it ok to HO one of the enemies ON THE INITIAL MERGE in this circumstance?


I want to be clear on this because I'm getting tired of getting shot in the face holding my fire.  I always assume the guy in front of me is going to HO me at the merge and I try to maneuver to avoid it.  The best is when the guy shoots 1000 out because then I can simply scoot away.  The worst is when the guy is right on your nose before he decides to shoot.

The other night, I got shot right in the face by a very well known, very high ranked pilot...twice.  In one case, I, in a zero, followed his P-38 up into a loop.  He reversed at the top so that we passed each other vertically nose to nose, my zero nose high, his P-38 nose down, nearly vertical, and as we passed he plastered me at 200 out.  It frustrated me because I could have/would have shot him as well, but was holding my fire since we were nose on nose.  In fact, I had bumped my nose down a hair to avoid a collision.  

So, I want to be clear on the generally accepted conduct of the HO.  

Thanks,
Toonces

[BaldEagl]

There is no "generally accepted conduct of the HO".

[toonces3]

thanks stu.

I sort of figured that must be the accepted practice.  This guy is a very well-known player and I was surprised by the move (twice).  

I have no problem with this style of play.  I just don't want to get caught not shooting when I should be shooting is all.  

I also agree that the HO was widely used in real life.  I watched the 'Dogfights' episode with the flying tigers on the history channel the other day.  In one fight, the guy puts his nose on the Jap plane and they just shoot away at each other until the Jap plane explodes.  Then the flying tiger guy gets this huge vibration, only to find later that all the bullets in the prop have thrown the balance out of wack.

[SlapShot]

If both have a guns solution on each other ... then you are HO.

If one has a solution and the other doesn't ... any shot taken by the guy that has the solution would be considered a deflection shot.

What about beyond that initial merge? After a nose to nose initial merge, assuming both pilots held their fire, is it ok to HO when passing nose to nose on the second merge?

I would say in most cases ... yes ... after the 1st merge it's "on". Now if I know that a certain person is in the area and I believe that I am fighting them, I will pass on any HO (see definition above) shot that is presented and wrestle with him until one gains the 3-9 advantage.

How about the following scenario: You're engaged 1v1. Soon 2 other enemies are joining the fight. You're outnumbered 3 v 1 so that everytime you maneuver from one opponent, you're facing another. Is it ok to HO one of the enemies ON THE INITIAL MERGE in this circumstance?

Anything outside of a 1 v 1 ... the HO, when available, will be dispensed without even blinking. Ya gotta eliminate any and all threats ASAP. Playing with your food outside in a many v 1 engagement ... will get you killed fast.

I was in a 4 v 1 the other day (P-38, 109, 190, Hurri I) ... the Hurri I got an oil hit in an HO situation and the 109 got a PW I think in another HO situation. They all eventaully died to being outmaneuvered in one sense or the other. I felt no remorse for the HOs (they fired HO too).

The other night, I got shot right in the face by a very well known, very high ranked pilot...twice. In one case, I, in a zero, followed his P-38 up into a loop. He reversed at the top so that we passed each other vertically nose to nose, my zero nose high, his P-38 nose down, nearly vertical, and as we passed he plastered me at 200 out. It frustrated me because I could have/would have shot him as well, but was holding my fire since we were nose on nose. In fact, I had bumped my nose down a hair to avoid a collision.

From the description, it sounds like he was trying to "rope" you ... a favorite maneuver for P-38 pilots. I would have been blasting he as he started his flop over the top and would continue even as he faced me ... this I don't consider an HO by either pilot (at the top of a "rope").

[Grits]

Avoid the HO shot on the first merge, but not because its "uncool", avoid it because its tactically a poor move. Set up for a lead turn on the first merge, which in the process will most times also allow you to avoid the shot of someone trying for a HO.

After the first merge, or while in a big furball, take ANY and EVERY shot opportunity you think is a good one, no matter what angle.

Then again, sometimes its funny to up an IL2 and just bore into people HO from 1000 out.

[Shifty]

toonces3. Check your PM's.

[toonces3]

Slapshot-
Excellent explanation.  That's more or less how I was playing it, except that I wasn't shooting HO on any merge, not just the initial merge.  That got me killed.  Won't happen again...now.

Shifty-
Replied.

See ya,
Toonces

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by toonces3
I also agree that the HO was widely used in real life.  I watched the 'Dogfights' episode with the flying tigers on the history channel the other day.  In one fight, the guy puts his nose on the Jap plane and they just shoot away at each other until the Jap plane explodes.  Then the flying tiger guy gets this huge vibration, only to find later that all the bullets in the prop have thrown the balance out of wack.

Don't get fooled by that episode ... If you listened carefully, the Flying Tigers KNEW that their .50 cals reached farther then the Japanese bullets, .50 cals outpowered the IJN machine guns at distance, and most of all ... they KNEW that the front of the P-40s were covered in armor along with bullet-proof windshields ... while the Japanese planes had very little, if any frontal armor. It was suicide for the Japanese to go HO with the P-40 at distance.

Had the IJN had similar machine guns, ballistics, and armor, I doubt very strongly that they would have gone HO as much as they did.

That episode should not be used as an excuse to always HO in a pixelated WWII combat flight sim ... the "dogfight" is what this game is really all about ... it's not a life or death situation, so why not see "what ya can do".

[StuB]

Whats to be fooled about?  It is a valid.....yet dangerous...tactic.

Any direct head-on merge is dangerous because even though you have them in your sights, they have you in theirs.  
The closure rates are so fast that even if you have a firing range advantage, if you miss they will be in range to hit you in a split second.....or you'll ram each other.
If someone is being foolish enough to obviously try to HO you .... give them what they are asking for....and a bloody nose as well.

If you hate HO's it's simple, don't merge head to head with people.

Originally posted by SlapShot
Don't get fooled by that episode ... If you listened carefully, the Flying Tigers KNEW that their .50 cals reached farther then the Japanese bullets, .50 cals outpowered the IJN machine guns at distance, and most of all ... they KNEW that the front of the P-40s were covered in armor along with bullet-proof windshields ... while the Japanese planes had very little, if any frontal armor. It was suicide for the Japanese to go HO with the P-40 at distance.

Had the IJN had similar machine guns, ballistics, and armor, I doubt very strongly that they would have gone HO as much as they did.

That episode should not be used as an excuse to always HO in a pixelated WWII combat flight sim ... the "dogfight" is what this game is really all about ... it's not a life or death situation, so why not see "what ya can do".

[Sloehand]

THE CREATURE WE LOVE TO HATE -  THE HO!

HO's
- are very misunderstood, and actually fairplay and occaisonally even useful, particularly when defensive in a many vs. one engagement.  There are no rules anyway that say you can't or even shouldn't HO.  Anyone who says it's dishonorable is full of whooie!  However, it does NOT gain you any respect when used, nor is it a sign of admirable dogfighting skills.

HO's
- whether they are true HO's, or just appear that way to the other pilot due to lag and inability to see the very small angle that makes it a deflection shot and not an HO, are going to be complained about by those other pilots who are gonna scream when they die.  Ignore it.

HO's
- actually are a 50/50 proposition of either pilot getting a kill, or being killed. They are the fairest, most equal engagement you can be given by the other pilot, and therefore, the worst one to stay in and try to win.

HO's
- if done repeatedly or almost exclusively by a particular pilot, are a sure sign of a bad OR lazy pilot (essentially the same thing) who's gameID should be "Target#325".  More often than not, this is a 1-3 month newb who can't do anything else, or a semi-vet (3-6 months) who doesn't really care to learn ACM and is just whacking his plane up there for the fun of it.

HO's
- can, with roughly +95% probability, be avoid no matter how hard the other pilot wants to face blast you, if you know how.  

HO's
- by other pilots then become a good thing for you, a happy thing that you want to see occur as often as possible, as you can now kill them 95% of the time (instead of 50/50) and you die less in the doing.

HO's
- can be avoided very easily with a little knowledge and practice.  Once knowing thoroughly how and why to avoid the HO AND get the kill, to die thereafter as a result of an HO means you were mentally on autopilot.

HO's
- are used by me anytime I want to or feel I need to, without regard to my opponent's race, creed, color, religious or lifestyle preference, or the whine he serves with his death as he floats to the ground.  However, since learning how to avoid them and still whack the daylights out of the other guy (spoiling his kill is a bonus to killing him masterfully with ACM), I rarily go for the HO anymore.  Defensively yes, offensively no.

I will gladly assist anyone who wishes to learn how to avoid the HO monkey, fake the other guy out, turn round on is 6, and shoot his butt down.

This is my mission in life.  To open the -

Sloehand Remedial Flight School For Reformed HO Monkeys    

[mtnman]

I've found that if you find yourself getting face-shot you really just need to re-adjust your merge a bit.  

Don't merge so close to him that he can get an easy shot on you.  Come in a little to one side, or as I prefer, from a little lower.  I ASSUME that in every merge I will find my opponent trying to HO me.  NEVER assume that they won't.  There are a bunch of sticks in the game that will pass on the HO shot and "fight like a gentleman".  When you find one of those consider yourself lucky, but don't ever assume that the unknown icon is one.

If you merge too far away from your opponent you do open up another bag of pain too, so don't get too extreme.  Just far enough away so he has to dive or turn to get his shot.

That said, I LOVE it when my opponent tries for the face-shot.  It generally means that if I merge looking for an angle's advantage I will have a HUGE head start due to him wasting effort for the face shot.  From what I've seen, the HO bandit will die within 3-5 seconds after his face-shot attempt unless he simply blows through and runs away.

I prefer to merge from under my opponent, a little nose-up, and forcing him to push his stick forward to get a face-shot on me.  He'll red out or lose me under his nose.  I seldom get hit this way (once or twice a month or so...).  I'll dive before the merge so I have some speed to maneuver.
If he actually hits me on the merge, it's simply because I screwed up...

If you merge like this and the guy DOESN'T push down for a shot- STOP! Go to plan "B"!!!  Especially if he goes nose-up.  He knows how to fly and needs a little more "attention".  Beware the "rope" here.

I spend almost all my energy maneuvering for a non-HO shot, regardless of whether it is the 1st, 2nd, or 40th merge.  There are some HO shots I WILL take though.

If I take someone up on a rope (the "loop" you mentioned concerning the 38)(not a loop, BTW), and have misjudged my opponents E state, leaving him still nose-up, I will sometimes shoot him anyway.  Especially if I've roped 2 or 3 planes up, and don't want to waste time setting him up again.  Sometimes I dive on a rope victim that is nose-down, only to find he is actually nose-up.  OOPS!  I might shoot then too.  1v1 in this situation I will 9 times outta 10 not shoot, but instead adjust so he can't shoot me and try again.

2v1, 3v1, 5v1- I'm gonna shoot anyone dumb enough to get in front of me, and fast.  I don't care which way he's pointed.  HO shots aren't gentlemanly- well neither is gangin'!!  If they want to gang you, they deserve what they get.  2v1 I still avoid the HO, until times get desperate.  Mainly because the risk of me taking damage is too high.  Even in a 4 or 5v1 I'm going to avoid them, simply because I do actually plan on winning and don't want to be damaged.  I don't try for the HO, but will take it if offered...

I will also take front-quarter shots, depending on the situation.  I fly only F4U's, often against better turning planes.  I can't stay in a turn-fight too long, and am often presented with shots straight into the cockpit, etc.  Not HO, but they could be pulling toward me, which makes them likely to be "called" HO.   More of an SA issue, really, on the part of the opponent.


MtnMan

[WMLute]

It's all bout pursuit.

Lead pursuit = aiming your plane at the front of the bad guy

Pure pursuit = aiming your plane in plane, or equal with the bad guy

Lag pursuit = aiming your plane at the back of the bad guy

Most pilots I fight go for Lead pursuit.  Hence all the Head On's

Me...  I go for Lag.  I try to position myself beind the nme's.

Once I am saddled I go to Pure pursuit, and for a deflection shot I switch to Lead.

(gawd bless you Robert Shaw)

[dedalos]

Originally posted by Sloehand

I will gladly assist anyone who wishes to learn how to avoid the HO monkey, fake the other guy out, turn round on is 6, and shoot his butt down.
 

Oh please show me.  Then post the film so you and the rest of the people that think it is easy to avoid it and that you get an easy kill after  the HOer misses the shot can see how false these statements are.

Then we will try it with you engaged with 2 other guys and me bringing my lala in for HO pass.  I expect to see you easylly avoid me and then kill me a few seconds latter.

When and where am I getting my lesson?