Author Topic: Pretty please dear HTC gods... (Read 1392 times)

Lusche · « **on:** June 14, 2007, 07:09:05 PM »

...do fix the GV damage model.

I'm talking about that specific bug, where strafing fighters get the kill credit for a tank even if they did not seriously damage it.

While kill stealing is highly frowned upon regarding to aerial combat, you can see droves of fighters happily strafing tanks with 20mm and .50 cals, while that poor guy on the ground actually slugging it out with the enemy Tigers just gets the lousy assist.

I think that's because many players do really believe they can kill tanks with their machineguns. At least that's my impression after a lot of chats in the last weeks.

And to give that simple wish a better rating on the whine-o-meter: I just landed a sortie with 3 assists in a HurriD, because of that stuff. My personal best was a sortie 2 weeks ago, where I blew up 5 tanks and got 5 assists...

E25280 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 14, 2007, 07:21:38 PM »

I see your desire for it to be "fixed," but the question is, how?

Even using only .50cals, you can eventually track a tank. Having tracked the tank, he is basically a dead duck . . . so, why shouldn't the kill go to the guy who immobilizes the armor?

I agree with the sentiment, especially since it does seem there are a lot of people strafing only to killsteal. But how do you solve the killsteal problem without penalizing the guy who is actually trying to do the right thing? It is a tough one IMO.

Lusche · « **Reply #2 on:** June 14, 2007, 07:25:53 PM »

To know how I should have more knowledge about how it is actually implemented now. Also I'm not a programmer by trade

Maybe by just counting damage for credit purpose if a critical component was actually put out of order, like engine or turret, driver or maybe even tracks.
But now you can see the tanks running in perfect condition, not tracked, with engine & turret still working. You shoot them "Boom - Assist".

Krusty · « **Reply #3 on:** June 14, 2007, 07:35:12 PM »

I've suggested before that Hitech just take the guns that will NEVER EVER do ANY damage to a vehicle, and nullify their "hits" -- basically you see hit sprites, but they are not counted towards the kill, because you could fire an infinite amount of them for an infinite amount of time and not damage something.

Some 20mm rounds might do damage, so they ought to count, but the .303s and the 50cals shouldn't even factor in to kill messages if they will never damage the vehicle.

Something like that. I requested it a long long time ago. I totally leave it up to HTC to figure out how and why and which weapons, but if the weapon can't do any damage (.303s on a panzer) it shouldn't ever ever get credit for the kill. Not even an assist.

Karnak · « **Reply #4 on:** June 14, 2007, 08:26:59 PM »

Add a weight value based on what is damaged.

If TrackHit KillCredit = DamageValue

If EngineDestroyedHit KillCredit = DamageValue*250

If TurretDestroyedHit KillCredit = DamageValue*350

If CrewKilledHit KillCredit = DamageValue*400

Or some such thing.

Furball · « **Reply #5 on:** June 15, 2007, 03:43:24 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
Some 20mm rounds might do damage, so they ought to count, but the .303s and the 50cals shouldn't even factor in to kill messages if they will never damage the vehicle.

Even if you bounce the 50's off the roads...?

OdinGrunherze · « **Reply #6 on:** June 15, 2007, 07:21:26 AM »

Some people have the weird idea that a tigers thick skin covered the entire vehicle... Well bad news people, it didn't... In some places the armor was no thicker than 20mm....
Just a plain simple fact.... Tbolts and Typhoons, (killed) many german tanks with just their guns....
Happens to be the truth, like it or not...

OG

Lusche · « **Reply #7 on:** June 15, 2007, 07:29:52 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by OdinGrunherze
Some people have the weird idea that a tigers thick skin covered the entire vehicle... Well bad news people, it didn't... In some places the armor was no thicker than 20mm....
Just a plain simple fact.... Tbolts and Typhoons, (killed) many german tanks with just their guns....
Happens to be the truth, like it or not...

OG

1. It doesn't work in this game that way, so this is still just a try to steal some kills

2. TBolts weren't able to kill Tigers with .50cals in real life either. Happens to be the truth, like it or not...

Tanks were bombed ore killed by rockets (but the latter was actually much rarer than most people think)

Krusty · « **Reply #8 on:** June 15, 2007, 08:51:12 AM »

Rocket kills on tanks are pretty rare in this game, too >:D

OdinGrunherze · « **Reply #9 on:** June 15, 2007, 09:08:45 AM »

Again, we're back to reality vs gameplay... I suppose that you are right, as far as game play go's...

But in reality, all that was needed was a good burst of .50 into the upper engine decking, (which contained the radiators and cooling fans)...That would put a Tiger out of action... The germans couldn't repair them, so they would loot them for fuel and ammo, canibalize them for parts, and leave them behind... Reality...

But that wouldn't make for a very even game, would it???
I understand..

OG

Lusche · « **Reply #10 on:** June 15, 2007, 09:15:07 AM »

You might take a look into "Flying Guns: World War II' by Tony Williams, so far the best (and very detailed)) analysis on that topic I have read.

I hope Mr. Williams doesn't mind if I quote from his book:

Regarding to fighter attacks vs tanks during the Normandy Campaign (after presenting lot of sources & data):

"The ineffectiveness of air attack against tanks should have caused no
surprise because the weapons available to the fighter-bombers were not
suitable for destroying them. Put simply, the heavy machine guns and
20 mm cannon were capable of hitting the tanks easily enough, but
insufficiently powerful to damage them, except occasionally by chance.
The RPs and bombs used were certainly capable of destroying the tanks
but were too inaccurate to hit them, except occasionally by chance."

And by the way, this thread was not about if specifics weapons should be able to kill tanks or not.
My wish is simple: To give credit where credit is due. Don't give kills to strafing fighters that didn't hurt the tanks.

OdinGrunherze · « **Reply #11 on:** June 15, 2007, 09:22:33 AM »

Why don't ya go to the VFW, and talk to the guys who actually did it.. I have...
While they are still around....

That is, if you are a member....

OG

Lusche · « **Reply #12 on:** June 15, 2007, 09:28:39 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by OdinGrunherze
Why don't ya go to the VFW, and talk to the guys who actually did it.. I have...
While they are still around....

That is, if you are a member....

OG

Anecdotal history...

Yes, pilots claimed a lot of destroyed tanks.
That doesn''t mean they are always right.
Mr. Williams had based is analysis on official documents, for example very thoroughly analysis by the British War Office.

"During the German retreat from
the Falaise pocket later in August, the RAF and USAAF claimed 391
armoured vehicles destroyed. Shortly afterwards, the battlefield was
examined and only 133 armoured vehicles of all types were found, of
which just 33 had been the victim of any sort of air attack. In the
retreat to the Seine, large numbers of armoured vehicles were left
behind and Typhoon pilots alone claimed 222 destroyed, but only
thirteen out of 388 AFVs examined were found to have been knocked out
by RP attack. In the Ardennes salient, just seven out of 101
knocked-out AFVs were definitely or possibly attributed to air attack,
compared with claims for 90"

OdinGrunherze · « **Reply #13 on:** June 15, 2007, 10:28:50 AM »

I have many book's... MANY book's... Most of them give contradictory information... And are backed up by some govt's statistics.. It's gotten so I don't know what to believe anymore...
But this is hard to ignore...
"The Liebstandarte suffered a daily attrition of 35% during early August, while moving in Daylight...Due to incessant attack by Allied JABO's"...
"Das Reich Division lost 28 tanks and countless vehicles during their move from Toulouse, to the Normandy front"
"Roaming allied fighter Bombers, made it impossible to move our tanks in daylight"....
"Most of our units were below 50% strength before operation Luttich even began... Because of our lack of air cover"...
These are Verbatim quotes from Sepp Dietrich... Who would know better than he??

I see your point about pilot claims... If those claims were totalled, it would exceed the total production of many german vehicles...

So who really knows anymore... I could go round and round with ya over this... So lets just call it a draw...

OG

OdinGrunherze · « **Reply #14 on:** June 15, 2007, 11:58:07 AM »

Lusche,
You are obviously a knowledgeble guy, so am I, I welcome your view's....
I'd welcome your input, on any new threads that I start..
Good one coming, doing a little reading on it now...

OG