Hi Guys,
I don’t know if this is worthwhile, but I’ve been going through the thread looking at posts from most recent to least recent. I’m trying to select a few posts where a point is made (usually a recurring issue) that I think needs to be responded to:
Originally posted by Shuckins
Look guys, what's your beef? Several Christian posters have already stated that a literal burning Hell may not be scriptural. If that is indeed the case, the following verse becomes of great importance:
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die."
Pretty straightforward isn't it?
Undoubtedly God, being a gentleman, has laid out his plan for the afterlife in a pretty straightforward way. If you sin, you cannot enter into his presence when you die. Therefore, your soul returns to the state of nothingness from which it came prior to your conception. In such case, you won't even be aware that you no longer exist. Accepting his plan for the continued existence of the soul is up to the individual.
What could be more fair? Your fate is entirely in your own hands.
Shuckins, Let me divide up these points for ease of reply.
First the idea that there is no hell, but that the souls’ of unbelievers are annihilated at death, is not the historic Christian belief, nor has it had many adherents until relatively recently. This is largely due to the fact that all denominations and the vast majority of theologians have agreed that the scriptural support for a literal hell is overwhelming, and perhaps the strongest scriptural support for hell is provided by Christ himself. Generally speaking, the denials of hell that exist have largely been powered by a repulsion at the idea rather than sound biblical exegesis or a coherent systematic theology. With a few exceptions (John Stott comes to mind) those theologians and academics who have denied hell, would also deny the verbal plenary inspiration of scripture (the idea that the Word of God is all
“Theopneustos” or “God breathed” as Paul puts it in 2 Tim 3:16.)
Biblically, Hell is the just counterpart to heaven. But before I unpack that statement, let me explain the way the bible speaks of salvation and why in a very real sense, Hell is more “just” than heaven. To do this, I’ll need to compress quite a bit of scripture and redemptive history to fit into one paragraph. God created man in His own image, upright and sinless, with a knowledge of His Holy will (Gen 1&2). Man in his original state, was created as a union of body and soul that was intended to be indivisible. Unlike God however, man was created mutable - that is capable of a change in his state. Man was warned that if He broke God’s law he would become subject to sin and death (i.e. while his soul would still be immortal it would cease to be holy and upright by nature, and rather become corrupt and hopelessly inclined towards sin and wickedness (Gen. 8:21, Eph. 2:1-3, etc.), his body would also become corruptible, and the union between body and soul would be subject to dissolution) Through pride and the temptation of Satan, man sinned by disobeying God and so became subject to the penalties of the curse (Gen. 3).
However, God who is omniscient, was not taken by surprise by the fall of man. Scriptures like Eph. 1:1-14 tell us that even before man’s fall, God had determined to redeem or save many from the condition of sin and death, to redeem and restore the creation, to eliminate sin and death, and to create for himself a people who would love, worship, and enjoy communion with Him eternally. In order to do this it was necessary that the penalty for their sins be paid, and their righteousness be established. No mere man could do this, neither would he be inclined to do so. In fact, the only person qualified to redeem man by providing a spotless sacrifice in his place and establish a perfect righteous was God Himself, but in order to do so in the place of man he had to become man – hence the incarnation in which the Second person of the Trinity, God the Son, took on a new nature and was born as Jesus in Bethlehem. Jesus suffered in our place, paying our sin debt, and lived a sinless life. Through faith in Him we are united to Him, our sins are paid for by His sacrifice, and His own perfect righteousness is given to us. Hence the Gospel message of believing in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be Saved from our sinful condition, or as Paul put it so well:
“Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” (2 Cor. 5:21) Please note that this redemption was not deserved nor could it be earned, it is therefore not strictly speaking just when we received it, rather it is a gracious gift. So, God’s mercy is seen when man receives salvation through Christ, and God’s justice is seen when man instead comes before God for judgment and receives the just punishment for His sins in Hell. God is never unjust in that the actual deserved penalty for sin is either paid for by the sinner in an eternity in Hell or by Christ on the cross.
Hell is thus a place where the unsaved receive the due penalty for their sins. Just as the rewards of heaven are described as eternal (aiownion) by Christ , the punishment of hell are also described by Christ with exactly the same word: Matthew 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." As Heaven is a place where there are no longer tears, or pain, or sorrow, or corruption, Hell is exactly the opposite, these are the only things that shall make up existence in hell. Hence Christ’s descriptive metaphor (taken from Is. 66:24): Mark 9:44 “where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.”
Finally, the verse you reference from Ezek 18:20 is not intended to support annihilation, it uses the word Nepesh which can mean a soul (in distinction to a body) or a soul as in an individual person (hence "Save Our Souls" - SOS meant rescue us not our immaterial souls). In this verse the second meaning - i.e. an individual is meant. The context of the verses is a discussion of the individual responsibility for sins. Ezekiel points out that son is not condemned for the sins of his fathers, he is condemned to die on the basis of his own sin. So God will judge and condemn individuals for their own sins, not the sins of their fathers. As Victor Hamilton points out in his commentary on Ezekiel: “Ezekiel is not creating a new doctrine. Actually, he is echoing Moses who said: “Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin” (Deut. 24:16).”
- SEAGOON
