The God Arguement

[phookat]

Originally posted by Donzo
Can you elaborate on these passages you speak of?

Sure.  Here are a few: Job 38:4, 1 Samuel 2:8, Psalms 93:1, Joshua 10:12.

[Donzo]

Originally posted by phookat
Sure, we can discuss this.  The answer is as follows.  A toy boat on the shore doesn't exist in isolation.  It exists in concert with your own experience and knowledge of toy boat building factories that you can visit and have evidence for.  The evidence for a factory is not the boat itself, but the factory that you can visit where you can see step by step how the boat is made.  Also, you know of no natural process that reasonably (and with evidence) explains toy boats.  So you conclude that to the best of your knowledge, some intelligent designer made the toy boat.

Next you'll want to talk about the perfectly designed banana, no doubt.

So one would have to search the entire earth to find a factory where toy saling ships are manufactured exactly like the one you found in the woods in order to find proof that the boat was made?  Or can you come to the conclusion that what you found was made because it is similar to what you have observed being made in the many factories you visited?

[Holden McGroin]

The biggest problem with the argument is that he tries to prove a faith with logic.  Logic and faith are two different belief systems and one cannot be used to prove the other.

Specifically, he syas about the big band, in bold,

In fairness to the Big Bang Theory, it doesn't make any claims as to what happened before singularity. Mainstream science simply says they don't know what initially caused the universe or how singularity came to be.

He does not understand that according to the theory, there is no before, as space/time was created with the big bang.  If time was created, there is no before... no time existed before time came into existance.

So his argument against the BB is flawed.

[McFarland]

Originally posted by phookat
No you don't.  If you don't know his mind, you don't know that you can trust him.

Yes, I do know I can trust him.


The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures:
he leadeth me beside the still waters.

He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the
paths of rightousness for his name's sake.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of
the shadow of death, I will fear no evil:
for thou art with me; thy rod and
thy staff they comfort me.

Thou preparest a table before me in the
presence of mine enemies: thou anointest
my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me
all the days of my life: and I will dwell in
the house of the Lord for ever.
Psalm 23

[SirLoin]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
 Logic and faith are two different belief systems and one cannot be used to prove the other.

/B]

Faith is defined in the dictionary as:.."the firm belief in something for which there is no proof"

amen

[phookat]

Originally posted by Donzo
Or can you come to the conclusion that what you found was made because it is similar to what you have observed being made in the many factories you visited?

Yes, it can be a similar factory.  But the other details I mentioned above need to be present, you do have to be able to visit the factory and see the evidence of how it works.  The important thing is that the toy itself is not the evidence for the designer.  That would be circular logic.

Keep in mind also, that if you want to convince me of something, it's gotta be a bit more than some straw-grasping desperate "just might be possible" ploy.  I am definitely open to the argument, but you have a lot of contrary evidence to deal with before you can convince me.

[McFarland]

Well, as I can see I cain't change your ignorance and save your souls, I shall do as the Holy Bible says to do, kick the dust off of my heels. Good day, may you someday find your Saviour.

[phookat]

Originally posted by SirLoin
Faith is defined in the dictionary as:.."the firm belief in something for which there is no proof"

amen

Well, I would put it more strongly.  Like "the firm belief in something for which there is no evidence."

[McFarland]

And I shall pray for your souls, as I do every night.

[phookat]

Originally posted by McFarland
Yes, I do know I can trust him.

Yeah, of course you can trust him, it says so right there in the book he wrote.

Indeed, Toad, where's that rolling eye thingy when you need it?

[phookat]

Originally posted by McFarland
Well, as I can see I cain't change your ignorance and save your souls, I shall do as the Holy Bible says to do, kick the dust off of my heels. Good day, may you someday find your Saviour.

I hear this a lot.  All it means is that you're probably wrong, but you don't want to admit it.  But whatever, believe what you like.

[Furball]

In the future, the current religions will go the way of ancient religions and be study material...  People will wonder "how anyone ever believed such things".

http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/ancient_religions.htm

I am very interested in other people's views, and very much respect them.  I find it fascinating listening to Seagoon and asking him questions on his beliefs, but i still cannot believe the stories of the bible - as much as i would like to.

[Angus]

Many of the stories linked to the new testament are not yet published.....

[Shuckins]

Furball, I agree that Seagoon brings a lot of class to this type of discussion.  He makes his points lucidly, with fervor, and never seems to lose his cool....unlike those on either side who preach a mantra and utilize the "I'm here to convert the illiterate and unwashed masses" argument.

If you're interested in a clear and concise presentation of what are, perhaps, the most pertinent cosmological theories about the creation of the universe, check out these sites:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/98/3.12.98/Guth_coverage.html



http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/mysteries/html/guth_1.html

[Silat]

The well-educated and knowledgeable atheist does not argue whether God exists.  He or she argues that the very concept of a deity is logically incoherent not just from religion to religion, but from person to person within those religions.