Author Topic: Kills vrs assists (Read 1306 times)

tommygun · « **on:** June 21, 2007, 11:44:35 AM »

I see and hear a lot of whining about people stealing kills or getting assists when they thought they should have gotten the kill.
How is is determined who gets the kill and who gets the assist when multiple planes shoot down the same bogey?

The Fugitive · « **Reply #1 on:** June 21, 2007, 11:48:22 AM »

Who ever does the most damage gets the kill. So if I throw 30 rounds and knock a wing off a guy, its my kill..... unless some other guy chases it down putting 35 rounds in it, then he gets the kill and I get the assist.

Larry · « **Reply #2 on:** June 21, 2007, 12:01:06 PM »

Who ever puts the most lead in the plane gets the kill. Thats why tards spray tanks with .303s and .50cals. They will never do damage but they will get the kill when a friendly tank puts a few shells in it.

crockett · « **Reply #3 on:** June 21, 2007, 12:05:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by The Fugitive
Who ever does the most damage gets the kill. So if I throw 30 rounds and knock a wing off a guy, its my kill..... unless some other guy chases it down putting 35 rounds in it, then he gets the kill and I get the assist.

I don't believe "the most damage" gets the kill theory, because if that's the case it sure as hell doesn't work that way. Being I tend to fly planes with smaller ammo size and load out, I tend to see a lot of assists especially when I'm flying the ki-84 or a A6m.

I've routinely smoked a guys engine, given him cockpit shots, knock off ailerons and then have someone come along take a few pop shots with a big cannon plane and I get a assist and he gets the kill.

Then on the flip side, I've come across planes and they were not even smoking with no physical appearance that it's even damaged. I come in and blow the tail or wing off and only get an assist.

Then there is the other side, I've come up to planes that were smoking either fuel or black smoke I kill him and get the kill and I'm expecting the assist.

Personally I think it has more to do with the cannon size than anything else. There are certain planes that If I hit another plane I'm almost certain I'll get the kill rather than an assist. Then there is the flip side where I'm almost expecting to get the assist 5 out of 10 times.

I think the damage model is a bit buggy when it comes to actual cannon size. No way in hell can you tell me a guy whom blew the wing off a plane did less damage than anyone else that hit the same plane. Taking the wing or tail off of a plane causes it to stop flying. You can't get much more damage than that.

edit..

The same issue with GV's.. I like to use the M-8 quite a bit and it takes a lot of rounds in tanks and flacks to kill them. I've taken out turrets (1 to 3 shots) Then continued to hammer on the tank body (typically 5 to 10 rounds depending what it is) to only get an assist because someone shot him before I was finished or because maybe they had a deflection shot on him before I saw him.

So it's the same deal in the GV's it's just doesn't happen quite as much, because GV fights tend to be more spread out.

So my theory is, the "round" size plays more into it, than anything else. I'm guessing the damage model works off the point system. So a bigger round will cause more damage points. Meanwhile someone else might do more "actutal" damage with smaller rounds and cause less overal "damage points".

NateWolf · « **Reply #4 on:** June 21, 2007, 12:05:20 PM »

I think it should be who ever does the most damage not just the amount of shots. I could put 4 shots in a plane. Kill the pilot with one, blow the wing off with 3. (Those are some big bullets!) Then some dweeb comes down and puts 5 rounds into plane and just destroys an elevator. It would make more sense for me to get the kill, instead of the guy who put in 5 rounds instead of 4. Also, I have a question. If some guy puts in 6 7.7mm rounds, and I can put in 5 30mm rounds, and the plane is going down, would I get the kill since my bullets cause more damage, or will he since he put more in?

Auger · « **Reply #5 on:** June 21, 2007, 12:06:41 PM »

Larry has it right. It's not most damage that gets the kill, it's most hits. Put 300 rounds of .303 on a target without breaking anything and you'll get the kill when someone with a 30mm kills the pilot.

Toad · « **Reply #6 on:** June 21, 2007, 12:16:44 PM »

Quote

The system now awards the kill to the person who does the most damage, not how many pings. There is damage done even if the plane is still flying. If you got an assist, it meens that some one else did more damage to the plane than you did, you just happen to put in the last bullet.

HiTech

This Thread

NateWolf · « **Reply #7 on:** June 21, 2007, 12:17:30 PM »

That seems fair.

Laurie · « **Reply #8 on:** June 21, 2007, 12:17:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by crockett
I don't believe "the most damage" gets the kill theory, because if that's the case it sure as hell doesn't work that way. Being I tend to fly planes with smaller ammo size and load out, I tend to see a lot of assists especially when I'm flying the ki-84 or a A6m.

I've routinely smoked a guys engine, given him cockpit shots, knock off ailerons and then have someone come along take a few pop shots with a big cannon plane and I get a assist and he gets the kill.

Then on the flip side, I've come across planes and they were not even smoking with no physical appearance that it's even damaged. I come in and blow the tail or wing off and only get an assist.

Then there is the other side, I've come up to planes that were smoking either fuel or black smoke I kill him and get the kill and I'm expecting the assist.

Personally I think it has more to do with the cannon size than anything else. There are certain planes that If I hit another plane I'm almost certain I'll get the kill rather than an assist. Then there is the flip side where I'm almost expecting to get the assist 5 out of 10 times.

I think the damage model is a bit buggy when it comes to actual cannon size. No way in hell can you tell me a guy whom blew the wing off a plane did less damage than anyone else that hit the same plane. Taking the wing or tail off of a plane causes it to stop flying. You can't get much more damage than that.

edit..

The same issue with GV's.. I like to use the M-8 quite a bit and it takes a lot of rounds in tanks and flacks to kill them. I've taken out turrets (1 to 3 shots) Then continued to hammer on the tank body (typically 5 to 10 rounds depending what it is) to only get an assist because someone shot him before I was finished or because maybe they had a deflection shot on him before I saw him.

So it's the same deal in the GV's it's just doesn't happen quite as much, because GV fights tend to be more spread out.

So my theory is, the "round" size plays more into it, than anything else. I'm guessing the damage model works off the point system. So a bigger round will cause more damage points. Meanwhile someone else might do more "actutal" damage with smaller rounds and cause less overal "damage points".

Thats because a 6-80 big cannon rounds are worth 1000 303's or 400 50's

Larry · « **Reply #9 on:** June 21, 2007, 12:31:06 PM »

Size of the gun and damage doesnt count when getting a kill. I fly the 109K4 alot. I only put one 30mm in the plane and take his wing/tail off and get assists all the time. Once I come up on a pony flying back to his base. I droped in and made a slashing attack and hit him with three 30mms (two in the right wing one in the tail) it broke off both the tail and wing. I start to fly off and watch him smack the ground. (assist)

Xasthur · « **Reply #10 on:** June 21, 2007, 12:55:46 PM »

Would it be possible to introduce a system which 'turns off' the ability to be awarded damage to critically damaged aircraft?

For example... You take the wing off a bomber.... no chance of further controlled flight... and a lovely...... 'person' on your country follows this flaming wreck down, spraying, resulting in them being awarded the kill on an already critically damaged aircraft.

Perhaps when critical damage is registered, the ability to be awarded anything greater than an assist is turned off?

Perhaps allow people to take the rest of wing off of a tip'd and flaming buff in order to take them out before they can suicide bomb hangars/CVs... but award them with an assist.

All superficial damage would still be counted as always.... whoever does the most damage before an un-flyable state is reached counts... but once that 'flyable' threshold is crossed..... cut the ability to be awarded a kill.

I suspect that this idea has been raised before.... but it is a good one.

And think of how funny it would be to see those knobs who habitually follow other's kills down in order to steal the kill do so.... waste all their ammo, blow all their alt (and possibly auger

) only for them to be awarded an assist for their 'trouble'.

[Edit]

Also, I wonder if it would be worth considering changing how kills are awarded in the following case:

A target is hit quite hard by 'Aircraft A' with a 6 x .50 cal load out... yet the aircraft is still in a flyable condition and is no longer engaged with the intial attacker.... the battle rages on....

'Aircraft B', a countrymen of 'Aircraft A' encounters the target and engages. 'Aircraft B' gains the advantage and takes a shot with 30mm cannon which would destroy any aircraft, fresh out of the hangar or otherwise.

It seems to me that breaking an aircraft in two is more worthy of being awarded a kill than making swiss cheese of non-vital surfaces.

Perhaps change the system so that a catastrophic hit on a flyable aircraft gets the kill.

The way I understand it, the damage model works like this:

Each aircraft has a 'damage allocation', let us say 100 points of damage, 10 points of damage being a couple of bullet holes in non-critical areas, 100 being destruction.

If Aircraft A inflicts 55 points of damage on a target and Aircraft B inflicts 95 points of damage... only the first 45 points a counted and thus even with a 'kill-shot' from Aircraft B, Aircraft A is awarded the kill.

I'm too tired to go into this further right now.... anyone have any further thoughts or contributions to this idea?

SlapShot · « **Reply #11 on:** June 21, 2007, 01:01:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Larry
Size of the gun and damage doesnt count when getting a kill. I fly the 109K4 alot. I only put one 30mm in the plane and take his wing/tail off and get assists all the time. Once I come up on a pony flying back to his base. I droped in and made a slashing attack and hit him with three 30mms (two in the right wing one in the tail) it broke off both the tail and wing. I start to fly off and watch him smack the ground. (assist)

Very easy to explain ...

Say a P-51 wing needs 300 damage points for failure.

A .303 round can deal out 1 damage point.

A 30mm can deal out 30 damage points.

I have fought the P51 with a Hurri 1 and layed 295 damage points to his wing and I either ran out of bullets or he escapes.

Your flying along, spot said P51, swoop down and lay 1 30mm round into his wing.

With you shooting the wing you have used up the last 5 damage points and the rest of your 25 potential damage points are useless.

Lets see ...

Me ... 295 damage points

You ... 5 damage points (25 useless damage points)

I get the kill ... sorry about that.

Any scenario you come up with can be explained thru the mathematics, but I do believe that a pilot kill overrules any and all damage. Kill the pilot and you will get the kill.

SlapShot · « **Reply #12 on:** June 21, 2007, 01:09:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Xasthur
Would it be possible to introduce a system which 'turns off' the ability to be awarded damage to critically damaged aircraft?

For example... You take the wing off a bomber.... no chance of further controlled flight... and a lovely...... 'person' on your country follows this flaming wreck down, spraying, resulting in them being awarded the kill on an already critically damaged aircraft.

Perhaps when critical damage is registered, the ability to be awarded anything greater than an assist is turned off?

Perhaps allow people to take the rest of wing off of a tip'd and flaming buff in order to take them out before they can suicide bomb hangars/CVs... but award them with an assist.

All superficial damage would still be counted as always.... whoever does the most damage before an un-flyable state is reached counts... but once that 'flyable' threshold is crossed..... cut the ability to be awarded a kill.

I suspect that this idea has been raised before.... but it is a good one.

And think of how funny it would be to see those knobs who habitually follow other's kills down in order to steal the kill do so.... waste all their ammo, blow all their alt (and possibly auger ) only for them to be awarded an assist for their 'trouble'.

[Edit]

Also, I wonder if it would be worth considering changing how kills are awarded in the following case:

A target is hit quite hard by 'Aircraft A' with a 6 x .50 cal load out... yet the aircraft is still in a flyable condition and is no longer engaged with the intial attacker.... the battle rages on....

'Aircraft B', a countrymen of 'Aircraft A' encounters the target and engages. 'Aircraft B' gains the advantage and takes a shot with 30mm cannon which would destroy any aircraft, fresh out of the hangar or otherwise.

It seems to me that breaking an aircraft in two is more worthy of being awarded a kill than making swiss cheese of non-vital surfaces.

Perhaps change the system so that a catastrophic hit on a flyable aircraft gets the kill.

The way I understand it, the damage model works like this:

Each aircraft has a 'damage allocation', let us say 100 points of damage, 10 points of damage being a couple of bullet holes in non-critical areas, 100 being destruction.

If Aircraft A inflicts 55 points of damage on a target and Aircraft B inflicts 95 points of damage... only the first 45 points a counted and thus even with a 'kill-shot' from Aircraft B, Aircraft A is awarded the kill.

I'm too tired to go into this further right now.... anyone have any further thoughts or contributions to this idea?

I have aways wanted it to be ...

Once a critical failure (loss of wing, loss of tail, anything that renders the plane flightless) has occured, then any and all damage point calculations cease and the kill is awarded, at that point, to whomever did the most damage.

If others choose to attack the flailing wreck pumping rounds into them ... have at it ... like you said, they would only be blowing their alt and ammo.

EDIT ... I don't agree with your EDIT ... take my scenario of the Hurri 1 vs P51 ... the P-51 could have exited the fight and there is nothing that the Hurri 1 could do about that ... yet that person DOES deserve the kill.

hubsonfire · « **Reply #13 on:** June 21, 2007, 01:11:40 PM »

It's not that those points are useless, it's just that someone else did more total damage.

Quote

Originally posted by SlapShot
I have aways wanted it to be ...

Once a critical failure (loss of wing, loss of tail, anything that renders the plane flightless) has occured, then any and all damage point calculations cease and the kill is awarded, at that point, to whomever did the most damage.

If others choose to attack the flailing wreck pumping rounds into them ... have at it ... like you said, they would only be blowing their alt and ammo.

This would be great.

crockett · « **Reply #14 on:** June 21, 2007, 01:12:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Laurie
Thats because a 6-80 big cannon rounds are worth 1000 303's or 400 50's

Yes but that just goes to show that it's a flawed system. If the guy with the big cannons just peppers the guy but does no "real" physical damage to the plane. Why then should the guy flying the plane with 303's be penalized when he blows the wing off the con just to get the assist.

It is what it is, so complaining about it isn't going to do much more than likely. However it's just one more thing that discourages the use of the "lesser equipped" planes.

If I want to up a spit 1 or a Hurricane 1 because it's a challenge. I do all the work sawing off a wing only to lose the kill to some LA dweeb whom flew buy and peppered the fuselage with a few cannon shots. Life's not fair I guess, neither is this game. I just think maybe the guy that does the damage to the "vital" points on the con should get the credit.