Guns & Cannons vs. Heavy Armor

[BaldEagl]

I've been reading where GVers get upset because some fighter pilot pumps rounds into a tank with no hope of killing it then gets the kill when a tanker finishes him off.

I just logged off.  I was defending a VB with a tank until the hangers all got dropped and I was bombed by a jabbo Lanc.  

I upped a fighter to go take on a few planes that were in the area but there weren't many when I got there.

On my next mission I upped a Spit XVI in attack mode but with no ord (it was down).  I attacked a Panzer with nothing but my 2x20mm Hispanos and my 2x50cal machine guns.  I took out his turret and engine and left him sitting there smoking hopelessly.  I didn't put in the final kill shot but for all intents and puposes I killed him (and did later get awarded the kill).

So much for no hope of killing heavy armor with machine guns and cannons.

[Lusche]

Got film?

[Larry]

You may have taken out his engine but I dont think you can kill a turret with 20mms.

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by Lusche
Got film?

No, unfortunately I never film but there were several countrymen around including Kev367th.  Maybe one will weigh in later.

[Lusche]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
No, unfortunately I never film.

Such a pity

The reason I do ask:

I fly a lot of anti tank sorties, usually about 50-100 a tour. And very often it goes like this:

I approach the tank in my HurriD or Il-2. He is rolling, no smoke, no visible damage. One well placed shot and his engine is out. 20 seconds later, while I go around for a (hopefully) final approach I see the tank strafed again by a P38 or La or whatever followed by a "Yeah I got his engine!" on local vox.  

I don't say that's what happened in your case, this just should illustrate my general scepticism

I can't remember having seen any light armed fighter seroiusly damaging a T34 or Tiger with cannons. I have seen some 110Gs tracking them by gunfire, albeit not that often. I did hear untold numbers of fighter pilots yelling "I got him!", after a friendly tanker killed the tank they strafed without any results...

I don't say I believe it is absolutely impossible to stop a tank with 20mm fire. But it is exceptional rare.
I have to say that when I see light armed fighters strafing a tank that already is (or soon will be) under fire by friendly tanks or tankbusting planes, I consider that killstealing.


Hmmm... it seems after almost two years of AH2 I have my first agenda

[BaldEagl]

Lusche,

You're scenario wasn't the case.  

This was on SmPizza.  While there was another fiendly aircraft in the vicinity he never made a firing pass at this Panzer.  

All the other friendlies were in GV's at or near our VB.  The Panzer was about halfway between his spawn and our VB as I attacked him following the blind side of the valley (from our VB) and moving in and out of tree cover.

I finally smoked him on my 5th or 6th firing pass using very short bursts at an aproximate 45 degree dive angle and aiming from his turret back.  I'd guess I used about 200 20mm rounds plus however many 50cals fire simultaneously.

I initially went out thinking I'd hit a few M3's or M16's but this was the only guy I saw until later (there was an M4 on top of the hill that I pumped my last 20mm's into and the rest of my 50cals score-whoring for another kill )

What I'm saying is no one else ever had a shot on him until I was leaving.  Then a friendly GV finished him off, announcing it on local vox.  As I landed I also got credit for the M4 although I take no credit for doing anything other than pumping lead at him.

Now that I know this is possible I might try it again with film running.

I don't think it would work against a Tiger or a T-34 or with anything less than 20mm's but I didn't think it would work today either until it did.

[kilz]

i would say i have to see the film cause i been killing tanks in AC for YEARS and i have never seen a AC take out a panzer like you did before. other then the IL2 and Hurri2D

[Jaco84]

It would make more sense that you might have taken his motor out so he ditched and you got the proxy.

[Lusche]

Originally posted by Jaco84
It would make more sense that you might have taken his motor out so he ditched and you got the proxy.

Technically, this wouldn't be a proxy. It would be a "true kill" with score & perk points awarded.

[Sloehand]

I think the greatest discord with light fighters, etc. strafing GV's that they have little hope of killing or even disabling was associated with TT.  Many a time I've seen Spit, LA, even F6F strafe 3-4 tanks in a row to rake up hits, so that when that tank dies, as most all in TT inevitably do, if enough hits were registered the fighter gets the kill regardless if they inflicted any actual damage.  It's a great scam and used by most of the retards who bring a plane over TT in the first place.

Lameness knows no bounds.

[hubsonfire]

Well, thank you for chiming in with your personal bias, and not necessarily fact or experience.

On topic:
I'll wager baldeagl got his engine, but not the turret. I have disabled tanks this way, and been disabled this way, but I don't recall losing my turret to anything but Ils, Hurri 2Ds, and other heavy cannons. I recall thinking I got a Firefly's turret with my Il's guns, until said firefly turned and blasted a P38 out of the air with his maingun. Smoke doesn't necessarily mean helpless.

[Larry]

Yes I wish they would make a different model for GVs. If you get your engine taken out you smoke. If your turret gets blasted eather you have a little fireball coming outa your tank or just take the whole turret off like it does when you die sometimes. I have disabled panzers many times in Il2s thinking I got its turret and telling friendly tanks hes harmless just to see them get killed by the smoky panzer.

[Bruv119]

It's very rare that 20mm do disable tanks (especially tigers) but I will throw this into the discussion.

This had to rate as one of my most enjoyable tank runs.  I'm at an enemy field and everything looked good for the capture.   We didn't have any uppers really when everything kicked off.  I think a goon had dropped and i'm expecting the base to turn.  Then a building popped and the whole Bish airforce decided to put their wellies on and come out of hiding from the tower.

I managed to get a quick 20+ kills in when I was forced to beat the retreat.  I was out of most rounds and I tried to leave unnoticed.  That didnt work out too well because every plane in sight wanted a piece of my tiger.  One guy i killed about 10 times did 3 kamikaze JU88 runs.  

Anyway I nearly make it back to the friendly spawn when a spit 16 did 2 very accurate strafing passes into my right side track and to my surprise I keeled over!   After taking blast damage and all sorts of ammo the thing that disabled me was indeed a stoopid 20mm from a strafing fighter.  Then mr Ju88 gets his 4th attempt correct and carpet bombs me with his whole load.  

The thing is though if fighters didnt do that I would lose half my kills in GV's, recently I've been popping loads of planes with the main gun when they decide to HO a GV  



Bruv
~S~

[storch]

if you zoom in all the way, don't auger and get a good 2 second burst you can take out panzer/tiger turrets by hitting the line where the turret joins the body.  I do it with a big nosed 110 all the time.  then again on other days you can't kill either type of tank with two 500kg eggs dropped into the cupola so go figure.

[BaldEagl]

Good points guys.  I can't be sure his turret was out other than the fact I never saw him take any sort of shot but then again he never really had one to take.

Still, disabling him by taking out his engine seems like a worthy endeavor to me so I still say attacking under those conditions is justified.