A5 vs Dora...

[fockewulf8]

I have tried the A5 A8 and D9 for air combat (use the F8 for ground attack).  The A8 even with the two 20mm layout is like throwing a boulder around at low alt and it feels heavy in the air.  So basically when it comes to dogfighting I have decided on the A5 or the D9.  Now some might say, duh the D9 but i see some nice advantages to the lil A5.  The A5 feels and is light and nimble, even when being a lawn dart compared with the other fockewulfs (as much as a 190 can feel nimble).  It climbs like a lil bottle rocket compared to the other 190s i believe.  Yet the Dora has a stronger engine and bigger machine guns.  It picks up speed as well as the A5 if i remember right, yet feels heavier on the stick than the A5.  Im having trouble deciding between the two.  I want to pick one to put all my efforts into learning.  Anyone wanna provide some advice or insight into the difference between those two?  I feel homeless, and a lil befuddled, at this point and i really want a main stay 190

[1K3]

I copied this from another website

Fw-190 tactics: 190A-4 to D-9
ripped from http://www.airwarfare.com/tactics/tactics_fwtactics.htm
Tactics by Hunde_3.JG51 (Kyrule)

This Fw 190 TIP is based on IL-2 Forgotten battles sim game.  I edited some content to make it relevant to Aces High.  Fw 190 flight modeling in IL-2FB should feel the same as in Aces High

    The Basics

    Use wingman and friendlies, I can't emphasize this enough. The 190 is NOT a lone wolf plane but is an excellent 4 vs. 4 (or more) plane. Often you can simply out-run pursuers and let your buddies pick them off of you. As long as energy is equal or to your advantage, speed and high speed handling will keep you alive. If you don't have advantage, work to at least even it out then disengage.

    Always keep in mind that almost every plane will out-turn you in sustained turns, and almost every plane will out-climb you in sustained climbs. Never think you can out-turn someone, unless flying at very high speeds but this is more for defensive than offensive value. Never rely on climb either, with the Dora it is more acceptable.

    If you do try to climb away, do so at higher speeds than in most planes. The 190A likes to climb at around 350 or so km/h (217 mph), don't climb below that speed. Remember also that above 2,000m (6,560 feet) your climb will start to fall off even more, though speed will increase. The 190 seems to like it around 1,500m (4,920 feet) and below, and between 4,500m (14,760 feet) and 6,000m (19,680 feet).

    Gain altitude whenever you can. Engage with an advantage, disengage if you lose it or get jumped. Split-s works great as climbing will get you shot and other planes will out-turn you. Keep the fight at high speed where your plane handles as good as anyone's, if not better.




    The Setup

    Find your opponent first and stalk him. Don't fly straight at him as soon as you see him. Try to determine where he is heading and sneak in on him. Try to imagine what he sees and where his blind spots are. When diving in on him get as low as possible to stay out of sight, but don't sacrifice your speed advantage.

    Know other planes strengths, where they are faster and where you are faster. For example, drag a Mustang to the deck or up to 5,000m (16,400 feet) or so, in between 1,000m (3,280 feet) and 4,000m (and above 6,500m) he will be stronger. Knowing where planes are stronger takes alot of time and testing, but it is very useful if you want to employ tactics properly, especially if you want to disengage.

    When attacking an opponent do not follow unless they are making gentle turns. If you are lining him up and he banks hard, simply break off and climb away. He has now lost energy and you have increased your advantage. Try to force him to evade and bleed energy. Not great for Hollywood movies but very effective at gaining an advantage.

    Use high yo-yo's when making high speed attacks at slower opponents. Make your attack, pull up sharply, flip over on your back, look straight up (down at your opponent), wait until he flies beneath you, then dive down on him again.




    The kill

    Fire at very close range, don't fire from far off and alert your opponent prematurely during your attack run. In some, more maneuverable planes you want to scare them and force them to maneuver, not in the 190. Be accurate.

    Learn high speed gunnery, it is much different than TnB (turn-'n-burn) gunnery. Learn to anticipate more while your opponent is maneuvering rather than following. I recommend practicing with Fw 190 against a bunch of Hurricanes (and Zeros). This will teach you about gunnery at high speed against a slower opponent.

    Use rudder corrections a lot, it is part of high speed gunnery. If your opponent changes direction at the last moment you can kick your rudder at the last second and get a burst on him. This takes practice but with time it will be done unconsciously and will make you a much better shooter. And after awhile you will not even notice "the bar," (ammo counter) I swear.

    I like to trim the nose down a good bit from start, I fly the 190 at high speed more often than not and I don't need the nose pulling up on me, this can really effect your gunnery if not accounted for, especially flying at 600-700km/h (372-434 mph).

    Head-ons are acceptable in the FW-190A, maybe the only plane in the game where this is the case. You should come out the victor in a head-on attack because of your excellent firepower and engine durability. More importantly your opponent often will be less than willing to go head-on and will take evasive action, so you simply climb up and use his maneuver against him. When going head-on I usually aim slightly high because the bullets/rounds will drop and because I want to force him down or to the side. This is one case where it is good to fire from farther out, don't worry about wasting ammo you have plenty.




    Et Cetera

    Evasive maneuvers can be very effective at high speed. You should be going fast anyway, but if not dive, jink, and gain speed. Severe manoeuvres when an opponent is behind you, even to the point of blackout as long as you are aware of angle the blackout is induced at, can be effective because if he wants to follow chances are he will blackout also. Try to ride the edge and not black-out, this takes experience. If blacked-out make subtle manoeuvres because you will often still have minor control of your aircraft.

    I prefer to set convergence for cannons at 500m (475 yards), the rounds/bullets leave your aircraft at a much flatter angle than say at 200m, keeping them more level in your gunsight and making deflection shooting easier. At 200m your rounds actually leave the aircraft at a slight downward angle, you don't need four cannons to hit in the same spot anyway. 500m also gives you a bigger hitbox, or more "spread."

    Look for the 109's. Focke Wulfs and 109's compliment each-other well. These two planes have different fighting styles and strengths and combining the two can only make both of you more effective.

[1K3]

More useful info

The only thing I would add is that when I see tracers I immediately apply full negative elevator (fully press forward on the stick). The 190 has good elevator response and this is usually enough to throw off your attackers aim long enough for you to perform your half-roll and dive. I like to very gently turn/jink during my dives just in case he is following close. The dive followed by a reversal (another half-roll and pull-out) is effective. Your only concern with this manoeuvre is that you have sufficient altitude and that you don't perform your reversal so late as to build speed past your critical limit.

Another manoeuvre that can be effective when you don't have as much altitude and speed but have clouds nearby is a steep diving, fairly tight corkscrew. It is extremely difficult for anyone to hit you when performing this manoeuvre but you have to be careful with the stick. Again, this is effective when clouds are nearby, when you pull out of the corkscrew you may be vulnerable but the idea is to finish the manoeuvre in a cloud or very close to one.

Also, if you have a plane that you cannot shake that handles as well as yours at most speeds (P-51, P-47, etc), even after you performed other manoeuvres, you can try a harsh, desperate manoeuvre that induces blackout. Just remember that even when blacked out you often still have minor control on your plane so don't just sit there, use gentle inputs on the stick to keep from being a static target. Also, be very aware of the angle that you induce blackout and where this will lead, you don't want to blackout when descending at anything but the slightest of angle. This is dangerous and you need alot of speed but if someone is stuck to you then it might be enough to save you or buy you time as they simply cannot follow without blacking out themselves. It sounds desperate, and it is, but it should not be

It is best to shoot then climb/extend away. Don't follow him into turns unless they are very gentle. P-47 pilots often adhered to the rule that any turn greater than 90 degrees was unacceptable, and this holds true for the 190 as well. I find a straight zoom climb followed by a Hammerhead preferable to a gentle combat/climbing turn unless there are others about who you do not hold a significant energy advantage over. In this case a longer extension/climb followed by a combat turn is probably your best bet.

For the reasons I mentioned above it is easy to see why the 190 is a(n) excellent plane to use when you have a wingman or wingmen, but it is not the best 1 vs. 1 plane unless you have a decent altitude/energy advantage. The utilization of the hammerhead can be useful in low combatant encounters as well. If all else fails the 190 has excellent "escapability" with its great high speed handling, roll-rate, and speed at sea-level. If jumped by an opponent with a severe advantage a split-s into a dive works well as he will bleed his energy turning around (or require a much larger area/radius to perform his split-s), and if he is stuck to your 6 o'clock a split-s, into a jinking high speed dive, followed by another split-s (or variations of it) can be helpful in eliminating his advantage and supplying you with the needed space to simply out-run your opponent. Never simply fly straight in these manoeuvres, keep moving but do it gently so you do not bleed speed while performing them but rather you build it. Don't be predictable. If someone is behind you, the last thing you want to do is climb (presenting an easy target), and most planes will out-turn you, so your best bet is to dive/split-s and build speed quickly where you can use your high speed handling, roll-rate, and level speed to your advantage.

As for diving in on opponent I prefer a fast, fairly sharp dive to a point slightly above and directly behind my opponent, from there I use a shallow dive to attack point. I dive sharply at the beginning so I can get down and out of sight. If you use a shallow dive and remain high above him you will likely be spotted.

[1K3]

A very excellent description of German fighters (Bf 109 and Fw 190)

Originally posted by Kweassa
If I'm flying with people whom I can trust my back, who aren't afraid to push the 190 aggressively when it comes down to multiple engagements, then the 190 is by far the superior choice.

The 190 is simple and straightforward, needs no complicated tricks, and suited with people who fly with strict self-discipline.



If I have to fly alone, or have to do everything from the merge to the final coup-de-grace myself, or the people around you aren't very aggressive and can't to anything else than resort to lazy BnZ tactics despite there's an enemy plane right behind your tail, then I'd up a 109.

The 109 is complicated, flashy, aggressive, and suited for people who like the hybrid E -smart flying style that lies somewhere between pure TnB (turn-n-burn and BnZ (boom-n-zoom).

[fockewulf8]

wow, lots of good info there.  thanks  any advice on the a4 vs d9 in combat?

[Sketch]

Here is some info from Soda's page.  Since his is based off of Aces High, not saying your info is wrong 1K3.  

Fw190A5
Fw190D9

And here is his main page: Soda's AH Aircraft Evaluation

[BaldEagl]

I fly all of 190's a lot including the Ta-152 (it's a FW in case you didn't know).  My preference is the A8.  

If I were to choose between the A5 and the Dora as a primary ride I'd go with the A5.  The Dora is pretty specialized within the family to a B'n'Z role where the A5, while not as fast allows more flexibility in mission planning/encounters.

If I had to rate them as to their preffered mission styles I would say;

A5 - Best all around fighter.  Best turning FW.
A8 - Next best fighter but allows greater firepower when encountering buffs therefore somewhat more flexible in capabilities.
D9 - Best B'n'Zer of the group and one of the fastest planes out there.
F8 - Best atttack fighter of the group.  Performance almost identical to the A8 therefore not bad in a fighter roll either.
Ta-152 - Best high alt hunter/buff hunter.  One of the best planes in the game over 20K.

Pick the A8, pick the A8, pick the A8

[Spikes]

I use A5 to turn
I use A8 to Attack/GV kill/Buff hunt
I use D9 to pick ( )
I use F8 to pork

[toonces3]

isn't saying the A5 is the best turner of the 190's like saying it's the best turner of the dumptrucks?  I mean, compared to other 190's it turns better, but it is still a horrible turning plane compared to other turn fighters, or even poor turn fighters, right?

I'm having trouble seeing where giving up the 190's greatest asset, high speed and high-speed handling, for a marginal turn performance gain is worth picking the A5/8 over the D9.

Not trying to be argumentative, but I'm really curious how you fight the 190 as well.  The D9 is probably my current favorite plane right now because it is so darn fast, and has cannons, so I can dictate the fight really well and egress whenever I feel I need to.

[wrag]

Hmmm.........

IMHO best to NOT try turn fighting ina A5, or any 190.

BUT!

Roll!

Speed and ROLL are the 190 main attributes, IHMO.

So don't turn so much, ROLL.

You can achieve very good direction changes in all 190's by NOT turning but rolling.

[Fulmar]

I fly almost exclusively the 109s and 190s.  As of late I've been riding the 109F-4, but for a while it was strickly 190s.

I generally stick to the A-5 or A8.  I prefer the nimbleness of the A-5 (also faster and faster climb rate than the A8) for dogfighting and I leave the A8 in the hangar for buff hunting only.  The 30mm is a beaut but is quite heavy and takes away its manueverability.  Yes it can roll away, but you have to stay on the offensive when flying the A8 as it is slower, turns poorly and doesn't climb as well as most other fighters you see in the MA.  But for taking out buffs, that 30mm is a dream.  Just remember to BnZ in her and limit stall buffeting turns as she develops parkinsons at low speeds pretty quick.  

If you're slow and low, you're dead.  That's about it.

[Krusty]

I convinced 5-6 squaddies/pals once to do a 190D sortie... None of them were very good in it (including myself), meaning that we didn't "specialize" in that plane, but we ended up mauling the enemy horde we ran into. Some had to RTB for oil, but most of us made it back with a few kills under our belts.

If you even have just 1 wingman to force an enemy to break (thus, DENYING the turn fights, where almost every plane turns tighter than you) it mops up.

The Dora is 35mph faster on the deck, climbs better up to 16k when both planes are about the same, and accelerates noticably faster than the A-5.

For some more stats (pulled from in-game testing), see this link:

http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=190a5&p2=190d9&p3=190a8&p4=ta152h

[fockewulf8]

thank you all very much for your help and info, i appreciate it  from flying eariler today and taking both the a5 and d9 out for a spin i think im going to try and work on my a5 skills.  i like the d9 but something tells me that lil a5 has a lot of hidden potential when used properly.  its low stall speed (stalls at 100 if i remember right), fast acceleration, can keep alt just as well as the dora when bnzin, and good firepower.  also that fast acceleration in combination with its turning, roll rate, and general spunkiness allows for increased defensive abilities when on the deck than the other 190s, even being slower (although i am inexperienced ;x).  and as the sayin goes "stuff happens" so when im on the deck thats another tool in the tool box i feel.  looking at all the info you guys have provided and my experience flying the two i think the a5 is a diamond in the rough.  once i get my rudder peddles that should help much more with my snap shots and defensive abilities.  i wanna test this feeling i have so i think ill be working on the lil a5.  thanks for helping me decide guys  cya in the sky!

[Knegel]

Originally posted by toonces3
isn't saying the A5 is the best turner of the 190's like saying it's the best turner of the dumptrucks?  I mean, compared to other 190's it turns better, but it is still a horrible turning plane compared to other turn fighters, or even poor turn fighters, right?

I'm having trouble seeing where giving up the 190's greatest asset, high speed and high-speed handling, for a marginal turn performance gain is worth picking the A5/8 over the D9.

Not trying to be argumentative, but I'm really curious how you fight the 190 as well.  The D9 is probably my current favorite plane right now because it is so darn fast, and has cannons, so I can dictate the fight really well and egress whenever I feel I need to.

Hi,

the 190´s dont have a very good sustained turn, but the initial turn is rather good and the 190A5 do this at a slower speed than the D9, as result its a better close in dogfighter.
Of course who is so stupid to try to use the turnratio over the rollratio to get a advantage is lost while a dogfight.

I personally dislike the poor firepower of the D9. If the enemy dont saw you its ok, but while highspeed dogfights its often not enough to get a snapshot kill, while the 190A8 and A5 offer a wider range here and the 190´s need that, cause they rarely can stay on the tail of an enemy for longer than a half sec.

Together with a wingi, who knows what to do, i prefer the 190A8 cause its great firepower, while i have to agree,  the D9 is the better plane.

Greetings,

Knegel

[Larry]

190s are not turners at all. Best thing to do is fly to 10-15K B&Z and pick. 190s are some of the best planes in AH but take sometime along to to master. If you ever get in a fight where you HAVE to turn DONT. Use the grat aileron roll and sissor fight.

I hardly ever fly the 190A5 in the LWMAs but its the one you should start off in. Never take the MGFFs in it though, they just add weight and done have to kick MG151/20s have. I always take the quad 20mms in the 190A8 and only fire them.  (Only time I ever shoot BBs is when im outa cannon or attacking bombers.) I never take the 30mms in the A8 because unless your real close you cant get the 20s and 30s to hit at the same time. The dora is my main 190 if you have the speed you can pwn. Just never let anyone above you and dont loose your E.

The 190s are at thier best when flown in pairs. (One lead and one wingman.) When you spot a low enemy the lead rolls over and goes in. The wingman should wait about five seconds and then roll in after the lead. Useing that tactic works everytime. If the con spots the lead and starts to turn the #2 can lead its turn and kill it. Another thing is after the lead has made his run if any cons try to follow him up #2 can pick them.

Some may call this flying "timid", I call it flying smart. If the FW could turn with a spit I'd turn fight all day. Fly your plane smart and  exploit thier advantages. When someone calls you an alt monkey or run90. Just make fun of them when you dive into a sea of red pop a few of his buddies and fly away unharmed. Most of the time when they call you names they jsut want to get you to turn back and die.