Incas in Norway !

[Angus]

No matter what you think about what the ancestors of the incas would have done to the visiting vikings somewhere maybe not in the inca ancestor homelands, - the fact still remains, - inca bodies buried on a christian spot in Norway.

In a window of time, where the Norse were, hands down, the greatest Seamen and navigators in the world.

In a window of time, where it is absoluely established that Vikings were already in N-America, in Istanbul, deep inside Russia, settling in Greenland, and also exploring the coasts of Africa!

If this finding is waterproof, I put my money on the Incas sailing the high seas in a longboat.

[MiloMorai]

Didn't the Aztecs also think Cortez was a god because of a prophecy?

[Angus]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Didn't the Aztecs also think Cortez was a god because of a prophecy?

I think so. At least things got confsed and it improved his position because of it.
BTW, in an open mediaval combat, the Spanish would have been swamped by the Aztecs.
But how were things some 500 years before?

[MiloMorai]

What was the name of that Spanish explorer who discovered the Mississippi River? He has a rough time of it.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Didn't the Aztecs also think Cortez was a god because of a prophecy?

It has been widely believed that the Aztec Emperor Moctezuma II initially believed the landing of Hernán Cortés in 1519 to be Quetzalcoatl's return. This has been questioned by many ethnohistorians (e.g. Matthew Restall 2001) who argue that the Quetzalcoatl-Cortés connection is asserted in no documents created independently of post-Conquest Spanish influence, and that there is little proof of a pre-Hispanic belief in Quetzalcoatl's return. Most documents expounding this theory are of entirely Spanish origin, such as Cortés's letters to Charles V of Spain, in which Cortés goes to great pains to present the naïve gullibility of the Mexicans in general as a great aid in his conquest of Mexico.

Much of the idea of Cortés being seen as a deity can be traced back to the Florentine Codex written down some 50 years after the conquest. In the codex's description of the first meeting between Moctezuma and Cortés, the Aztec ruler is described as giving a prepared speech in classical oratorial Nahuatl, a speech which, as described verbatim in the codex (written by Sahagún's, Tlatelolcan informants who were probably not eyewitnesses of the meeting), included such prostrate declarations of divine or near-divine admiration as,

"You have graciously come on earth, you have graciously approached your water, your high place of Mexico, you have come down to your mat, your throne, which I have briefly kept for you, I who used to keep it for you,"

and,

"You have graciously arrived, you have known pain, you have known weariness, now come on earth, take your rest, enter into your palace, rest your limbs; may our lords come on earth."

Subtleties in, and an imperfect scholarly understanding of, high Nahuatl rhetorical style make the exact intent of these comments tricky to ascertain, but Restall argues that Moctezuma politely offering his throne to Cortés (if indeed he did ever give the speech as reported) may well have been meant as the exactly opposite of what it was taken to mean: politeness in Aztec culture was a way to assert dominance and show superiority. This speech, which has been widely referred to, has been a factor in the widespread belief that Moctezuma was addressing Cortés as the returning god Quetzalcoatl.

So I guess it's debatable whether or not Moctezuma thought Cortez was a god.  Since the Spaniards destroyed virtually all records during their conquest, we'll never know for sure.


ack-ack

[storch]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
What was the name of that Spanish explorer who discovered the Mississippi River? He has a rough time of it.

Hernando de Soto

[Reschke]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
What was the name of that Spanish explorer who discovered the Mississippi River? He has a rough time of it.

Well Storch beat me to it. There have been several artifacts found from the Spanish in central Alabama and some people have narrowed down the site for a battle that the Spanish had with a Creek Indian tribe down to three sites. Unfortunately all three sites frequently flood (when we actually get rain) and its possible that any and all items that could have been found may have washed away.

[Elfie]

the fact still remains, - inca bodies buried on a christian spot in Norway.

I'll wait for more evidence before I jump on this bandwagon if you don't mind.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Elfie
I'm not so sure about that.....

Europeans at least tended to look at the natives in North/South America as mere savages. Europeans tended to exploit the natives whenever it was feasible.

The Norsemen were not Europeans, nor did they behave like Europeans. Some would argue that the Norsemen  sometimes were worse, but for the most part they were peaceful traders and settlers. “Viking” is not actually a name for  the Norse people, but more of a “label” placed on those that went on raiding parties. To “go viking” or “he’s going viking” etc.; the meaning of the word to the Norsemen is closely the same as what “pirate” means to us now.

Originally posted by Angus
Then another Speculation. If Vikings would have been on the Pacific side, wouldn't they rather have been over the Northern route? The year 1000 was in a warm period you see.
The Horn would have been much tougher, and actually, many ships were originally lost between Iceland and Greenland. Those are open boats rather than ships, but very fast and nimble.

Only the smaller raiding (war) ships were open, flat-bottomed and nimble to allow for quick beaching (to unload troops). The really big Norse longboats used for trade and exploration were much more sea-capable ships that were taller and had a deck.

http://www.travel-images.com/sweden36.jpg

[Shuckins]

Not all Europeans treated the natives of North and South America as savages.

The French settlers in Canada often intermarried with them and lived with them.  Both groups profitted from the fur trade.  The coureurs de bois roamed the rivers and streams of Canada in pursuit of trade and helped tie together and blend the two cultures.

As a result, when the Seven Years War broke out in North America, the tribes of Canada largely sided with the French.

After the end of this conflict, the British government passed the Proclamation of 1763 which was intended to keep settlers from encroaching on Indian land in the Ohio River Valley.  The fast growing English colonies resented this because they felt that they were being hemmed in along the coast.  All land was already owned or being developed, so poor settlers and new immigrants pushed through the passes of the Appalachians in defiance of the British government.  

However, the fact remains, the British government did make an attempt to safeguard Indian claims.  It had less success in the 13 colonies than it did in Canada.

[Angus]

Nice, Viking!
They were also remarkably good at navigation, and travels i.e. between Iceland and Norway were much more common in the year 1000 than some 200-400 years later. Norway back then was really quite something.
BTW, 1000 years ago, a guy from the neighbourhood went to Istanbul and served for the Sultan. "Væringi". Just like that.
And in that time, the most travelled woman in the world had in her log a winter in America, living both in Norway and Iceland, and then travelling down to Rome to see the Pope!

[Angus]

News update.
A Danish built, (brand-new) Viking ship is now starting a 1.900 km Journey from Roskilde to Dublin.
While this seems like nice and easy and near to coast, the route is not that nice.
Much nicer along the coast of America.

[AKIron]

My apologies to anyone I skipped but are we ignoring the possibility of Incan seafaring exploration?

[Angus]

Has been mentioned, but at the time the Vikings were hands down the explorers of the world as well as already in America.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by AKIron
My apologies to anyone I skipped but are we ignoring the possibility of Incan seafaring exploration?

The Incas weren't exactly noted for being seafarers. Not saying it isn't possible. Just wasn't one of their strong suits like it was for the Vikings.