Author Topic: Russian Navy - Secrets of the Kursk  (Read 3202 times)

Offline Viking

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Russian Navy - Secrets of the Kursk
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2007, 08:37:09 AM »
Not that I think that's what happened to the Kursk, but a 1.6 ton torpedo traveling at about 70 mph (Mk 48 ADCAP) will penetrate a submarine's pressure hull.

Offline Suave

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Russian Navy - Secrets of the Kursk
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2007, 08:38:40 AM »
not before it explodes, and then it won't be a circular hole.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2007, 08:49:45 AM »
Yes, before it explodes. Even German WWII torpedoes had delayed detonation fuses. My neighbor (now long dead I'm afraid) was a merchant sailor during WWII; served as a telegrapher on a cargo ship. The first time they got torpedoed the torpedo punched through the hull, went straight through the crew quarters (luckily my neighbor was on duty), and out the other side of the ship. A dud. Later they were torpedoed again, but they were not so lucky that time. The torpedo slammed through the hull and exploded in the cargo hold, blowing out the bottom and dooming the ship. He spent tree weeks in a lifeboat before being rescued. He also suffered from claustrophobia after that.

Offline Tango

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Russian Navy - Secrets of the Kursk
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2007, 10:10:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Yes, before it explodes. Even German WWII torpedoes had delayed detonation fuses. My neighbor (now long dead I'm afraid) was a merchant sailor during WWII; served as a telegrapher on a cargo ship. The first time they got torpedoed the torpedo punched through the hull, went straight through the crew quarters (luckily my neighbor was on duty), and out the other side of the ship. A dud. Later they were torpedoed again, but they were not so lucky that time. The torpedo slammed through the hull and exploded in the cargo hold, blowing out the bottom and dooming the ship. He spent tree weeks in a lifeboat before being rescued. He also suffered from claustrophobia after that.


YES and the holes they made were FAR from round. The ripped gashes in the hulls.
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Offline indy007

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Russian Navy - Secrets of the Kursk
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2007, 10:53:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
If an American sub had fired a torpedo at the Kursk, every ship in that exercise would have heard the torpedo firing on their sonar. In those shallow waters the American sub probably wouldn't have escaped the wrath of the Russian surface ships.


AFAIK, Mark 48 ADCAPs have a "swimout" mode. Little to no launch sound. No big rush of seawater spitting it out. Just swims out quietly, gets a good ways from the submarine, and then goes active and loud hunting for a target.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2007, 11:57:53 AM »
hmmm......

someday this war is gonna end..........
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Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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Russian Navy - Secrets of the Kursk
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2007, 01:41:07 PM »
Cant we just say its russian and it did what most russian equipment is good at?

Malfuntion, blowing up killing most of the crew.
Do any of you remember how they tested bombers?


"oh no, we lost another one to engine fires, okay..load the next one up,and fly that."


Rinse and repeat.



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Offline crockett

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Russian Navy - Secrets of the Kursk
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2007, 02:19:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Two Il-38 ASW aircraft allegedly tracked a contact near Kursk into Norwegian waters and down the coast of Norway for several days before losing contact.

On the night of 18th of August 2000, 6 days after Kursk sank, the USS Memphis (SSN-691) arrived at the Haakonsvern naval base in Bergen, Norway. She had visible damage to her bow and sail, and 12 American women had quietly arrived in Bergen. The one thing they had in common is that they were married to US sailors serving on the Memphis.



-USS Memphis docked behind KNM Bergen, an Oslo-class FF. Picture taken by Russian satellite.


On direct questioning by the Russians the Norwegian embassy in Moscow confirmed the USS Memphis had docked at Haakonsvern for repairs. Allegedly part of a fence used on LA-class SSN's sail was found near Kursk.

In the days that followed both President Clinton and the Chief Director of the CIA travelled to Moscow. Later the Norwegian government would retract their previous statement and deny that the Memphis had docked at Haakonsvern.


As far as conspiracy theories go this one is one of the more believable. Numerous collisions at sea between US and Russian subs have occurred during the Cold War, but information about the accidents was kept quiet to avoid increasing tensions.

Another theory that gained some popularity in Russia is that the Peter the Great accidentally sank the Kursk with ASW weapons during a live fire demonstration.


I remember the report of the American sub  reportedly damaged and IMO it's pretty likely that there was some sort of incident between the two subs.

I'd personally have to assume they collied and it's being kept a secret for obvious reasons. I'm just not convinced that the US sub fired on them, if it did I'm 100% certain there was reason for it.

I have seen the pictures b4 of the round hole in the Kursk and it's enough to make you go hummm. However we will likely never know the real truth, as it's obvious both sides wanted to bury the subject other than to sling a little mud in the media at each other.
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Offline john9001

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Russian Navy - Secrets of the Kursk
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2007, 02:26:03 PM »
well it's obvious, a inferior obsolete tiny US sub sunk the pride of the russian sub fleet in the middle of mighty russian navy and got away with it.

Offline crockett

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Russian Navy - Secrets of the Kursk
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2007, 02:29:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
As far as the first part, very true.


Second part, do you think the Russians would have kept quiet if we had torpedo'd  one of their subs while they were trying to impress the Chinese with their new torpedo? Highly unlikely. Very likely that if an American sub had fired a torpedo that the rest of the Russian fleet would have immediately attacked the American sub and sunk it. In those shallow waters it would have been extremely difficult to evade both surface and air attacks.

What about that new Russian torpedo? You guys that know physics how do you suppose it works?


Well first off, there is still enough bad blood between the US and Russia that if it was found out that an American sub sunk a Russian sub or played in part in it's sinking. well lets just say it would be good for either country.

As already posted in this thread, the Russian economy was not doing so good. The last thing Russia would want or could afford at that time was any sort of confrontation with the US.

Threat of war is great for the economies of both Russia and the US, however war it's self can be harmful to the economies.  The US knows this, Russia knows this and China knows this.  None of them will go to war of something as small as this hence the reason if anything did happen it was covered up.

That's the reason both out countries has supported and fought in smaller wars of proxies, because it's good for biz and the economy. On the other hand Russia knows damn well it couldn't afford a war aginst the US and the US knows there is a lot of money to be made with an open Russia.
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Offline crockett

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Russian Navy - Secrets of the Kursk
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2007, 02:34:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tango
Pics of ships that were torpedoed in WW2 show rips in the hulls, not perfect holes.


weapons are much different today than what was used in ww2. We have weapons that are designed to go through tank armor b4 they explode. I'm sure the same could be said for a torpedo.

Look at this picture as example of this destroyed tank from Iraq.





hot linked from http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2004/03/07/16727761.php
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Offline Elfie

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« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2007, 03:03:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
True, and i dont belive it was a torpedo. Torpedoes in ww2 had different warheads and fuzes than now, and _perhaps_ a mk48 adcap penetrates the sub before detonating.


I was under the impression that torpedo's were supposed to explode under the keel of the ship, breaking it's back so to speak. I have been known to be wrong before though. ;)
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Offline crockett

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Russian Navy - Secrets of the Kursk
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2007, 03:33:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
I was under the impression that torpedo's were supposed to explode under the keel of the ship, breaking it's back so to speak. I have been known to be wrong before though. ;)


Is that the way they currently work? I know i remember seeing a documentary on nuclear torpedo's and that's how they worked.

That and I saw one on future weapons I think it was where they were experimenting with releasing large volumes of air under a ship to make it lose bouncy and break in half.

I just wonder if they would use something like that in submarine to submarine warfare. I'd think it might be risky for both subs because of the shock waves in the water.

I don't know one way or another, just seems to be the best bet when attacking a sub from another sub, would be using a direct hit, rather than a proxy weapon. I'd think the most effective weapon would be one that punctures the hull rather than actually tear it apart with an outside explosion. (remember they do have nuclear reactors on them)

Maybe someone can chime in on whats used for sub to sub attacks.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 03:35:35 PM by crockett »
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Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2007, 03:41:44 PM »
Torpedo exploding under a destroyer, http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aad_1183458039

Offline crockett

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Russian Navy - Secrets of the Kursk
« Reply #74 on: July 06, 2007, 03:51:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Torpedo exploding under a destroyer, http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aad_1183458039


Yea I looked up info on the MK-48  http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-48.htm

It doesn't say if it's only a proxy weapon or if it's ever used in a direct hit attack. Just says it uses conventional explosives and is driven by wire.

So I'll have to just assume it's a attack by proxy weapon, rather than a puncture the hull style. It just seems very risky using a weapon that is designed to break a ship apart when the ship has a nuclear reactor on board.

Just seems like the more effective and safer way to destroy a submarine would be to have a weapon that penetrates the hull and a few bulk heads by brute force. Then let the rapid inflow of water actually sink the sub. At those pressures the speed the water would come it would sink it just as fast as blowing it in half I'd think.
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