Author Topic: Atlas Shrugged  (Read 1293 times)

Offline moot

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Atlas Shrugged
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2007, 11:27:17 AM »
Gunthr is obviously reading it right now, you can tell by the way Rolex' humor bounces right off.. :)
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Offline mosgood

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« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2007, 11:51:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
It was just a little humor, mosgood. Any conversation about Atlas Shrugged could use a little shot of humor. I apologize if you took offense at my opinion of the thousand-page doorstop known as Atlas Shrugged. I hope you notice an ever-so-slight, humorous pattern developing here?

Okay, I'll be dour and serious. Yes, I read it about 35 years ago. I'm a writer, so I'm a reader. Yes, I have a branding license - I'm licensed in 12 states (including Ohio) to brand readers.

I urge everyone to read it. As a matter of fact, I urge everyone to read it three or four times. Out loud. I recommend listening to the 47-CD "book on tape" version while crisscrossing the continent on AmTrak. I urge people read it aloud while simultaneously watching the movie "Reds" over and over.


Even though you were teasing me with the above, I thought it was pretty damn funny(always compliment a writers work and they'll be as happy as a clam)     ;)

I'm probaly just spoiling for a fight today.  I'll lighten up.  LOL

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2007, 12:40:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rolex
I shouldn't discourage you from reading it, moot. It's very large and heavy and best read intensely in coffee shops so everyone sees you reading it. Remarkably, everyone reading it think that they are not one of the "looters," but everyone around them is. :D


I haven't read it but have read about to try to decide if I want to invest the time in reading it. This may be one of the few times I think us enough alike to judge my time better spent reading something else.  :D

Anyone read this?

Endless Universe: Beyond the Big Bang

http://www.amazon.com/Endless-Universe-Beyond-Big-Bang/dp/0385509642
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Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2007, 02:30:46 PM »
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Gunthr is obviously reading it right now, you can tell by the way Rolex' humor bounces right off..  - moot


if that was humor, it was the most pompous and obscure form I've encountered...
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Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2007, 02:53:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
I haven't read it but have read about to try to decide if I want to invest the time in reading it. This may be one of the few times I think us enough alike to judge my time better spent reading something else.  :D
 


I'll be honest, but Atlas Shrugged was a little difficult to start.  Ayn Rand's writing was a little different then what I was used to (penthouse forum), but once I got through the first 50 pages it became really enjoyable to read.
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Offline moot

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« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2007, 04:22:56 PM »
Gunthr, I think on this board some people's character gets lost in translation :)
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Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2007, 08:18:04 PM »
Ok, Moot
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2007, 08:44:49 AM »
moot.. I have seen enough things in my life that were being taught as scientific fact turn out to be interesting and.... wrong... theories.

I see no harm in mentioning in a science class that many believe in intelligent design and that there can be no proof.   You don't really have to get into it.

History is also a good place to teach it...

Best tho is simply to take your children out of public school as Ayn would suggest I am sure and simply enroll them in private school.   A little religion will not hurt em and they all make up their own minds in the end anyway.

A little religion can't hurt em but a little socialist public school most certainly can... it keeps em from learning.

lazs

Offline JB88

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« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2007, 09:26:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
moot.. I have seen enough things in my life that were being taught as scientific fact turn out to be interesting and.... wrong... theories.

I see no harm in mentioning in a science class that many believe in intelligent design and that there can be no proof.   You don't really have to get into it.

History is also a good place to teach it...

Best tho is simply to take your children out of public school as Ayn would suggest I am sure and simply enroll them in private school.   A little religion will not hurt em and they all make up their own minds in the end anyway.

A little religion can't hurt em but a little socialist public school most certainly can... it keeps em from learning.

lazs


or alternatively, parents can get up off of their lazy butts and take their kids to the sunday school of their choice and teach whatever ideas they wish and  leave the rest of the population out of thier unrepeatable, unobservable, unscientific bent.

a little religion?  and that stops where?  no thanks ayatollah.

as for stopping learning...lets look at where the church denies that the earth revolves around the sun because it is too hard to shift gears as a good place to start looking to point out that religious dogma has no place in any culture who wishes to advance scientifically.  

it's bunk.  

i was reading an article last night where the intelligent design people are trying to get schools in kansas to teach "intelligent falling" as an alternative to"gravity".  whatever people.  pick up the clue phone.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 09:44:51 AM by JB88 »
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2007, 09:33:00 AM »
This is why Creationism doesn't belong in a science class:
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Offline moot

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« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2007, 09:55:58 AM »
Lazs, the purpose of science is to provide a means to accurately understand and reliably predict things.  
Just as political debate can get derailed into shallow name-calling such as the Repub vs. Demo polarizing has done, religion and science have been unduely pitted against one another.

There is no overlap between science and religion.  As you've said yourself, faith is not about what's proven.
Anytime you are arguing things rationaly, you are doing "science".  Anytime you build a hotrod, it is rational method that you follow to materialize your intentions.

The pitting of science against religion is artificial.  It is a solution to the non-issue that some people believe exists, namely that having a realistic grasp of concrete reality, of understanding the mechanics of nature in full will somehow contradict religious ideas.
Only a misunderstanding of either science or religion can lead to this conclusion.  It's very much a 1984-esque phenomenon that a spiritual authority (organised religion's powers that be) would oppose their flock enriching their understanding of our vast and awesome universe with the means of rational thought.  The denial of such benign notions makes no sense if we're supposed to trust this religious authority as having our best interest at heart.

I don't think there's any harm mentionning ID in science class.  I think the only responsible thing to say about ID is the truth, and the truth is that ID is a fraud.  You can't honestly be teaching kids to do things that make sense, only to then teach them that a certain type of nonsense makes sense too.  ID is as out of place in science class as are theories like flat-earthism, astrology, or phrenology.. "Pseudoscience".

History is definitely a good place to teach it. It has had an important enough role to play that it can't be ignored.  In history class, it doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong but only that it happened, just as civil rights, Rosa Parks, or Waco happened.

Religion doesn't hurt children either, and here you should see how I agree: if you are in religion class, you shouldn't be teaching science... What's the point of that?
All I am arguing is that ID has its place neither in science or religion class...  maybe in religion class, but personaly I don't think so: it's man-made, not the word of God.  It's a golden calf.
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Offline Sabre

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« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2007, 12:51:01 PM »
Moot: At the risk of hijacking this thread, I believe you have accepted a strawman version of ID; hence your conflating it with Creationism.  Remember that Science has it's dogmas too.  The idea that the earth is at the center of the universe was scientific dogma, as well as a religious one.  Indeed, without organized religion, we would not have science at all.  Calling ID fraud is simply repeating the dogma of the current scientific majority, and can only stifle the advancement of science.  I suggest you read some ID literature by pro-ID scientists before you simply parrot the proclaimations of those whose world view leaves no room for the possibility of design in nature.  Darwinists have had free reign for several generations, publically funded indoctrination in our public schools and centers of higher learning, and have failed to convince even a simple majority of the American public that design in nature is an illusion.

ID and Creationism are not equal.  Creationism starts with holy scripture (the Bible, specifically), and seeks to fit the evidence to it.  ID starts with the scientific evidence, and seeks to determine if and when a design inference is warranted.  It tries to define when chance and necessity are sufficient as an explaination, and where it proves inadequate, require intelligent input.  It neither requires nor demands belief in the supernatural, or in any specific religious doctrine.  Does it have philosophical implications? Yes, as does the pure materialism of Darwinian Evolution.  Remember that initially the Big Bang Theory was vehemently opposed by many in the scientific establishment, as it went against a major tenant of scientific dogma of the day, to wit, that time and nature had not beginning, but always existed.  Do things evolve?  Within limits, yes.  Can undirected chance and necessity account for all the complexity in nature, and for the fine-tuning of the universe?  On the evidence, I would say "no."

As a starting place, I wouls suggest Dr. Mike Behe's book, "Darwin's Black Box" as a good first step in understanding what ID is and isn't.  Another one I found facinating was called "Genetic Entropy & the Mystery of the Genome", by Dr. John C. Sanford.
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Offline moot

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« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2007, 01:41:11 PM »
The only one rule I put below none other is causality.  Darwin will (if he hasn't already been, IIRC he has) be refuted eventualy, it's only a matter of time.
Quote
Indeed, without organized religion, we would not have science at all.

That sounds bunk, but I'm open to proof..
Quote
and have failed to convince even a simple majority of the American public that design in nature is an illusion.

Neither statistics nor the masses are proof of validity.

Dogmatic science is a strawman too.  The purpose of science is understanding the unknown, not dictating it.
The reasoning that led to an earth-centric model of the universe was flawed, and was refuted to its present iteration.  This present iteration is most likely flawed too, and will be replaced too, in time.  The science illustrated in this example is the process, not any single intermediate iteration.  There is no absolute final conclusion, only an infinite tending towards one, paved with an infinity of improvements.

Science isn't the destination, it's the stairway to it.
ID is a fraud anytime it pretends to be science.  Even supposing it was scientificaly correct, it serves no purpose because it answers no questions. It provides no further understanding beyond its dogmatic dead-end that everything is due to a magical Deus Ex, and therefore is of zero usefulness in man's technological progress.  
Science isn't about stagnation, but that's all ID provides.

I can't comment on those books you refer to until I've actualy read them, so I definitely will give your suggestions a try; but ID as it's been explained to me is only partly rational, which is as good as entirely irrational.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 01:47:56 PM by moot »
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Offline JB88

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« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2007, 02:25:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
Moot: At the risk of hijacking this thread, I believe you have accepted a strawman version of ID; hence your conflating it with Creationism.  Remember that Science has it's dogmas too.  The idea that the earth is at the center of the universe was scientific dogma, as well as a religious one.  Indeed, without organized religion, we would not have science at all.  


the earth-centric view of the universe was not "scientific" dogma.  it was religious dogma being placed on top of a fledgling notion of "science".  in this particular case the science of astronomy.  

prior to that we basically had astrologers.

that is not to say that science hasnt gotten things wrong...but when it has it has been because it wasnt adhering to the basic tenants of science.

as for the "without organized religion we wouldnt have science" idea...

in another scenario, Columbus may have already made a voyage to mars if organized religion hadn't gotten in the way.

science and religion are seperate subjects with different ends and different means.

lets stick to the science.
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Offline john9001

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« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2007, 02:27:09 PM »
i don't think ID is all that intelligent, look at the human body, we have to breath and swallow through the same pipe, can you say choke?

there are other mistakes of the body design that i can't mention on this board.:D

it is my opinion that the human body (and brain) were designed by a committee and rushed into production before all the bugs were worked out.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 02:31:20 PM by john9001 »