Author Topic: Atlas Shrugged  (Read 1254 times)

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #45 on: July 09, 2007, 02:43:42 PM »
I'm reminded of the proof that God isn't an architect, namely that a competent architect wouldn't put the waste treatment plant next to the recreational area.  :D
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2007, 09:00:50 AM »
moot.. I am not sure I get your point even tho you were so kind as to put it into hot rod terms so that a poor ignorant guy like myself could understand.

When science teaches that there are many theories as to how the universe came to be.. what is wrong with mentioning intelligent design?    

88..  I am not saying that you need to teach any particular religion in public school... I am saying that we need to give vouchers to people so that they don't have to subject their children to public school...

Given vouchers...  most people... regardless of personal beliefes... would say as I do that...  a little reiligion will not hurt little johnny or jane and jerk their spawn out of public school so fast and into a private or religious one that it will make marx spin in his grave.

lazs

Offline JB88

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« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2007, 10:06:45 AM »
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Originally posted by lazs2
moot.. I am not sure I get your point even tho you were so kind as to put it into hot rod terms so that a poor ignorant guy like myself could understand.

When science teaches that there are many theories as to how the universe came to be.. what is wrong with mentioning intelligent design?    

88..  I am not saying that you need to teach any particular religion in public school... I am saying that we need to give vouchers to people so that they don't have to subject their children to public school...

Given vouchers...  most people... regardless of personal beliefes... would say as I do that...  a little reiligion will not hurt little johnny or jane and jerk their spawn out of public school so fast and into a private or religious one that it will make marx spin in his grave.

lazs


i have no problem with that, so long as all religious views are expressed as alternative theories.  too bad it will take a year and a day to scratch that surface...and since when have christians, who are notorious for spreading "the word" so lackadaisical in their desire for others to bear witness to "the truth"?  give an inch, someone is going to take a mile i say.
this thread is doomed.
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Offline Sabre

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« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2007, 10:14:41 AM »
Moot:

I appreciate your willingness to research ID further.  I believe a sincere effort and an open mind will lead you to reconsider absolute statements such as “ID is a fraud.”  I suspect the person who explained ID to you was uninformed regarding ID, and was likely just repeating someone else’s strawman version of ID.  As for what questions ID seeks to answer, they are the same questions mainstream evolutionary theory seeks to answer.  It can and does make testable predictions.  More than that, ID is a paradigm through which scientific research can be carried out.  Indeed, the idea that the universe and everything in it were designed was a guiding principle of science from its beginning (an idea promoted by the Catholic Church and its off-shoots, and kept alive through the dark ages by it).  It was this paradigm that led early thinkers to assume that nature would be law-driven, and that it could thus be described mathematically.  It was an underlying belief of most of the great historical figures of science, both before Darwin and even after him.

We use design detection methods in many fields of science today (forensics, archeology, cryptography).  ID simply seeks to apply those same techniques to biology and cosmology.  After ruling out chance and necessity, intelligent causation is a logical alternative to consider.  It does not stop science any more than knowing that a piece of unfamiliar technology is designed would stop a person from attempting to understand how it works or how it was designed.  Neither is it necessary to know who the designer is in order to arrive at a design inference.  It seems to me that ruling out a possible explanation a priori is dogmatic, and certainly more damaging to science.

As for the “bad-design equals no design” argument, this is a logical fallacy.  It presumes to know the original design specifications (we certainly don’t), assumes the nature of the designer (that he/she/it was infallible) and assumes that the design is unchanged since the prototype.  You see, ID does not claim that evolution (change over time) does not occur, only that it has limits to what it can do.  It is generally characterized by a loss of information (degeneration), and rarely if ever results in significant improvements.  The bad-design argument ignores the distinction between “perfect design” and “optimum design.”  As any engineer will tell you (and I are one), every system is a collection of compromises that, if done well leads to an optimum design.   If you could change the environment it will operate in (alter the laws of nature, for instance) or perhaps isolate it from affects of interconnected systems, you could possibly arrive at a “perfect” design, but that is rarely practical.
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2007, 10:25:27 AM »
The problem I have with ID is that it applies an inherently theological answer to a scientific problem.  Proper science is like dominoes, everything that happens should have A Cause, and that should have something that preceded it.  ID, on the other hand, adds an alternate answer to each question: "Because god said so".  Just because an ID proponent describes ID as science doesn't mean it actually _is_ that.

If your child was taking a science class, and the correct answer to every question was "Because God wants it that way" or "Because God did it", they would be religious intact and would be giving answers that satisfy doctrine, but it wouldn't prepare them for a career as a doctor, engineer, etc.  Would you feel they were being served well by their educator?

ID is an attempt to slip "Because of God" into science, and it just doesn't belong there.  Religion and Science are like oil and water, neither is served when the other interferes.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline mosgood

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« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2007, 11:23:21 AM »
I went out to my car this morning and while driving to work I realized that understanding a little about how my car works explains perfectly that no one built it.  It just happend..

Offline moot

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« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2007, 06:01:16 PM »
Sabre,
ID as I understand it is definitely fraudulent science because it infers intentions from something it knows nothing about (God/Designer's hand).  Science is about provable theory, and God's hand is nothing provable.
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It seems to me that ruling out a possible explanation a priori is dogmatic

As I said above, the only thing I take as dogma is causality.  I am suspicious of ID because it seems to sometimes do without causality.
Anyway, I will read those two books.
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It was this paradigm that led early thinkers to assume that nature would be law-driven, and that it could thus be described mathematically.  It was an underlying belief of most of the great historical figures of science, both before Darwin and even after him.

The first thinkers to willfuly apply scientific methods were probably apes like those at the monolith's foot in Clarke's Space Odyseey:
Fist hard.  Skull harder than fist.
Bone sturdy. Bone sturdier than skull.
Bone held by fist = bang? (vague idea)  Bone held by fist = bang! (practical test) > Eureka!


Lazs,
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tho you were so kind as to put it into hot rod terms so that a poor ignorant guy like myself could understand.

:lol You must be kidding :)  In fact I could make a pretty good hotrod allegory, but it would take too long to get just right and the point I meant to make is one we both already know.
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Offline AKIron

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« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2007, 06:53:10 PM »
That our universe came to be by intelligent design is imo as scientifically viable as believing it to simply be of it's own accord. It at least deserves a mention even in science class.
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