Author Topic: .223 vs. .308  (Read 724 times)

Offline BiGBMAW

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.223 vs. .308
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2007, 07:36:53 PM »
the rifle is a SAR48..Springfield Armories Licensed copy of the Belguim original FN-FAL's

It works perfectly..defnlty can reach out and touch

Offline Viking

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« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2007, 07:44:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
It's a nickname for weapons that are highly modular...


Nope. It is the name for the versions of weapons used by SOCOM. Any other use of the term is a misnomer.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2007, 08:26:54 PM »
Well, you better send a nastygram to Springfield Armory and tell them they shouldn't use that name on their rifle.
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Offline Viking

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« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2007, 08:41:49 PM »
Why? Should I also send a "nastygram" to Husqvarna for using the word “turbo” on my food processor? Buggered if I find a turbine in there.

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2007, 09:46:21 PM »
Why?  Why are you getting so angry at a language that changes over time?


Surely, you don't think we should keep speaking old english, do you?  With no new words that ever enter our dictionary?
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Offline Viking

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« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2007, 09:54:21 PM »
I'm not angry at all, where did you get that? I just found Halo's misspelling of SOCOM a bit funny.

Offline Halo

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« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2007, 10:30:35 PM »
SOCUM stands for Special Operations Command Uber Macho.  

I can't even blame that on a typo since the error was repeated.  

Chalk it up to a plot to increase thread hits.  That's no further astray than a .223/.308 topic evoking memories of 8-inch howitzers and tank guns.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2007, 10:40:27 PM by Halo »
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Offline FrodeMk3

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« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2007, 12:47:24 AM »
Origanally posted by lasersailor184

The ammo argument stemmed from a 1950's US Army research project. They concluded that the .223 was the equal of the .308 in killing ability, and since it was lighter more rounds could be carried, thus making the standard infantryman more effective.

They were wrong, and many US Soldiers paid with their lives during Vietnam (not even considering the M16 design flaws, just that of the .223).
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I'd like to add to that; Part of the same project drew a conclusion, that the .223 round would have the property of inflicting incapacitating wounds on enemy personell. Even though the round's immediate lethality was substantially less, the theory that ordanance procurement put forth was that more wounded would create a larger manpower drain, and huge burden on enemy logistical and medical facilities. The reasoning was that fewer personnel would be available for front-line use, having to use more for care of wounded.

Unfortanately, with the first-generation of the M-16, mishap's such as using an improper powder, that quickly jammed the gas-return system, added with the idea that the rifle was not issued with a cleaning kit initially, led to American casualties during the Rifles' introduction during Vietnam.

They did remedy the most immediate problems, such as the propellant powder, and adding a bolt-assist, and a cleaning kit with every weapon issued. But, as far as the debate as to which caliber is better for the battlefield...I'd have to say, would depend on locale. Close quarter areas, such as an urban environment, or a jungle, might lend more to the .223, which might see more usage on full-auto, being more controllable than the .308, and at short ranges. But in something like the open desert, or long plains, or mountains, where 400+ meter engagements might happen, the edge might go to the .308.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2007, 02:39:35 AM »
With the full length barrel the M-16 is a lethal weapon with the 5.56mm round doing much the same damage to a human body as the 7.62mm at 400 yards. At shorter ranges the 7.62mm tends to make cleaner and thus less lethal wounds than the tumbling 5.56mm. However I would not prefer the 5.56mm in a jungle environment because of that round's inability to penetrate large trees, and its tendency to veer of course at the slightest disturbance. Even light foliage and underbrush is sometimes enough to foul your shot. One of the AK-47's many advantages over the M-16 in the Vietnam War was its ability to kill soldiers behind natural cover, while the M-16 did not. In a European war I'd prefer the 5.56mm.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2007, 08:36:35 AM »
I guess it just depends on the situation..  I own both an ought six and a 223...  I would grab the garand first no matter what tho.

But it really doesn't matter.. if you have one gun and it is wrong you use it to get the one you need.

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Offline tedrbr

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« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2007, 09:56:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Yes, that is right.  I am right as well.  It's a nickname for weapons that are highly modular, probably attributed to the fact that special forces have the freedom to configure their weapons in ways they see fit.
 


Not so much as a "nickname" as a marketing ploy for military and military-like equipment trying to capitalize on both the war and the video game name recognition.  

I've never heard those in the military using the term SOCOM to describe modular equipment, such as rail systems, though... and we made a lot of modifications to our stock M16A2's and M4's while in country (handguards with rail systems, various assault slings, scopes and sights, forward pistol grips, Surefire lights,....).    
SOCOM outside of the original Spec Ops term usually refers to the Springfield Armory SOCOM M1 16 and  M1A SOCOM II , both carbines, mentioned by the original poster.  Since their introduction (and the video games I imagine), the term SOCOM has been hung on all sorts of military equipment, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's good equipment to field.  It's definitely becoming an overused term --- and losing it's meaning in the process.

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2007, 04:33:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Origanally posted by lasersailor184
I'd like to add to that; Part of the same project drew a conclusion, that the .223 round would have the property of inflicting incapacitating wounds on enemy personell. Even though the round's immediate lethality was substantially less, the theory that ordanance procurement put forth was that more wounded would create a larger manpower drain, and huge burden on enemy logistical and medical facilities. The reasoning was that fewer personnel would be available for front-line use, having to use more for care of wounded.

Unfortanately, with the first-generation of the M-16, mishap's such as using an improper powder, that quickly jammed the gas-return system, added with the idea that the rifle was not issued with a cleaning kit initially, led to American casualties during the Rifles' introduction during Vietnam.

They did remedy the most immediate problems, such as the propellant powder, and adding a bolt-assist, and a cleaning kit with every weapon issued. But, as far as the debate as to which caliber is better for the battlefield...I'd have to say, would depend on locale. Close quarter areas, such as an urban environment, or a jungle, might lend more to the .223, which might see more usage on full-auto, being more controllable than the .308, and at short ranges. But in something like the open desert, or long plains, or mountains, where 400+ meter engagements might happen, the edge might go to the .308.


While the wounded being a drain conclusion MAY apply, we haven't fought an Army since the .223's inception that could prove it.  Every single war since .223 was issued has been against fanaticals that would (I believe) only get angrier at seeing a mate being intentionally wounded as opposed to killed.


As to the full auto situation, I'd like to refer to a little story about my Father going through Marine Boot near the beginning of the Vietnam War.

They had been taught how to fire very well, and how to control the weapon.  The DI then told the firing line to switch to fully automatic.  Everyone did.  The command to fire was given, and every single marine trainee was jumped on and kicked and beaten and yelled at.

The Moral of the Story?  Never fire fully automatic.
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Offline rabbidrabbit

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« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2007, 04:45:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
While the wounded being a drain conclusion MAY apply, we haven't fought an Army since the .223's inception that could prove it.  Every single war since .223 was issued has been against fanaticals that would (I believe) only get angrier at seeing a mate being intentionally wounded as opposed to killed.


As to the full auto situation, I'd like to refer to a little story about my Father going through Marine Boot near the beginning of the Vietnam War.

They had been taught how to fire very well, and how to control the weapon.  The DI then told the firing line to switch to fully automatic.  Everyone did.  The command to fire was given, and every single marine trainee was jumped on and kicked and beaten and yelled at.

The Moral of the Story?  Never fire fully automatic.


Full automatic fire is quite effective if used properly.

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2007, 04:55:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
Full automatic fire is quite effective if used properly.


As are singularly fired shots.  Guess which one uses more ammo.
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Offline rabbidrabbit

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« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2007, 04:58:41 PM »
Care to draw on your professional experience to tell me about it?