Author Topic: Firemen dont like Rudy (Read 408 times)

Silat · « **on:** July 11, 2007, 11:57:42 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaCYEEO-58I&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fthecaucus%2Eblogs%2Enytimes%2Ecom%2F

Ouch republicon................... .

Xargos · « **Reply #1 on:** July 12, 2007, 12:39:42 AM »

I feel for those Firefighters who's radios did not work. I have had things happen in the prison I work where I called for help but ended up being saved by inmates instead because the State is too cheap to get us radios that work inside the cellblocks. We have had officers who had been knocked out for more then 40 minutes before anyone checked on them. People like Rudy do not give a damn about peoples lives.

Hornet33 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 12, 2007, 01:27:45 AM »

You've got to be kidding me??? I feel for the firemen lost that day, hell I went to several of the funerals. I'd like to know how many of the people that made that video though have a degree in Electronics. I do and I understand why those radios didn't work in those towers. No commercial portable radio would have worked in the interior areas of those towers such as the stair wells. There is too much structural steel, power lines and concrete blocking the RF signal.

We use Motorola Sabre radios in the Coast Guard. They run a little over $1000 each due to having an encription capablility. They are awsome little radios with great range. We tried using them onboard our ship for general comms during drills and stuff and guess what?? They didn't work. I could stand on the bridge of the ship and talk to the guys out in the small boat 10 miles away with one, but I couldn't talk to someone 75 feet away from me down on the mess deck. WHY???? Because of all the interferance in the way. Too much steel, too many power cables, too many grounds.

That video is the biggest bunch of crap I've seen in a long time. They want to blame someone for something they don't even understand.

Xargos · « **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2007, 07:26:47 AM »

It's all about frequency, repeaters, boosters and trunking. If submarines can receive a radio signal while on the bottom of the ocean, then there is no reason it can't be done elsewhere if your willing to spend the money.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #4 on:** July 12, 2007, 07:33:52 AM »

Swift-Fireman-boats.

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2007, 08:08:40 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hornet33
That video is the biggest bunch of crap I've seen in a long time. They want to blame someone for something they don't even understand.

That's a very common theme for many things.

john9001 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 12, 2007, 08:14:18 AM »

a labor union doesnt like a republican, wow, now that's news.

DREDIOCK · « **Reply #7 on:** July 12, 2007, 08:18:17 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Xargos
It's all about frequency, repeaters, boosters and trunking. If submarines can receive a radio signal while on the bottom of the ocean, then there is no reason it can't be done elsewhere if your willing to spend the money.

Dont they have to send an antenna up to the surface when deeply suberged?

Least thats what my understanding was

Also
Even if that werent the case. Id be willing to bet the communication equipment onboard a Sub is quite a bit larger then that can be fitted in a Walkie Talkie

Xargos · « **Reply #8 on:** July 12, 2007, 08:31:08 AM »

They can't broadcast only receive. H.A.A.R.P can send a signal anywhere on this planet.

Hornet33 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 12, 2007, 10:33:53 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Xargos
It's all about frequency, repeaters, boosters and trunking. If submarines can receive a radio signal while on the bottom of the ocean, then there is no reason it can't be done elsewhere if your willing to spend the money.

A submerged sub can ONLY recieve a signal via ELF and that's text only with the data rate being around 1 character ever couple of seconds. They don't use it to send long messages. Normally they'll just send a short coded message telling the sub to come to periscope depth so they can raise their antenna's to get the real message.

Repeaters wouldn't do any good if they can't get a signal out of the building.

The ONLY way they could have gotten radio traffic in and out of that building would have been if they had installed wave guides in the building during the construction along with the proper gear to re transmit those signals along the wave guide. One problem with that though is you can still get interferance. It's not a complete fix to the problem.

And before anyone starts going off about their cell phones work in buildings so why not the radios, totally different freqs used for cell applications. FCC regulations don't allow radios to operate on those freqs.

Also those fire fighters that were near the skin of the building did have comms. It was those in the stairwells and such that didn't. Due to their location it makes perfect sense and is not surprising in the least to those that know something about the subject.

I've been a comms tech for 13 years. I've seen radios do some weird things. I've had units that would work just fine on the bench, then wouldn't be able to do anything out in the field. Trouble shooting problems with comms gear can make you want to tear you hair out sometimes. Most problems end up being some sort of interferance from something other than the radio itself. Finding the source can be a major headache. One thing I have NEVER seen though is a persons decision to buy a particular radio being the reason for lack of comms.

Like I said, that video is a bunch of crap, made by people with an axe to grind and no clue about the subject they choose to use to grind that axe. They are idiots.

Yeager · « **Reply #10 on:** July 12, 2007, 10:52:14 AM »

loose screws lining up to get tooled....

Come on people. You your brains for a change.

Charon · « **Reply #11 on:** July 12, 2007, 12:07:55 PM »

I'm frankly a bit confused about exactly what Rudy did on 9/11 that was particularly "above and beyond."

He didn't hide sobbing in a closet (or stay in the air on a plane until Cheney told him it was OK to land

), but there were quite a few public employees who likewise did not. ATC guys kept their heads, dispatchers, firemen and police, ANG folk and even your average citizen on the street including those in the Towers at the time... Even Rumsfeld got his hands dirty during the events at the Pentagon. Rudy wasn't out on the ceiling of the SS Poseidon ball room organizing the masses in some epic journey to safety, as far as I could see.

I think putting the command center in the heart of a known, primary target was a bit dim. On the commo front I don't know enough details but do know that this was an issue raised before 9/11.

His positions on the 2nd are well known, and a big negative for me. But, he's no friend of the rest of the BOR by a long shot, as far as I can tell. He kinda combines the worst of both worlds with our uniparty system, IMO. He could probably ram through a conviction on Iran or Pakistan if the world was one big NY court system, but it's not (and he may not know the difference). Probably expand homeland security with a strong dose of centralized command and control like he did in NY City, whether it was needed or not and whether it was actually related to terrorism or other "domestic concerns." Can't really find anything to like about the guy.

I'm not sure Hillary wouldn't be a better choice if it came down to it and if you have to vote for the two faced uniparty. A true lesser of two evils (the capital "E" kind). She could at least bend (waffle) her positions in that Clinton style perhaps to be a centrist on some issues if enough pressure was applied (not that I would vote for her or Rudy). And, it would encourage the Republicans to actually field a non RINO candidate in 2012 if the base just evaporated in 2008. Still hoping for something better though.

Charon

crockett · « **Reply #12 on:** July 12, 2007, 01:25:11 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hornet33
You've got to be kidding me??? I feel for the firemen lost that day, hell I went to several of the funerals. I'd like to know how many of the people that made that video though have a degree in Electronics. I do and I understand why those radios didn't work in those towers. No commercial portable radio would have worked in the interior areas of those towers such as the stair wells. There is too much structural steel, power lines and concrete blocking the RF signal.

We use Motorola Sabre radios in the Coast Guard. They run a little over $1000 each due to having an encription capablility. They are awsome little radios with great range. We tried using them onboard our ship for general comms during drills and stuff and guess what?? They didn't work. I could stand on the bridge of the ship and talk to the guys out in the small boat 10 miles away with one, but I couldn't talk to someone 75 feet away from me down on the mess deck. WHY???? Because of all the interferance in the way. Too much steel, too many power cables, too many grounds.

That video is the biggest bunch of crap I've seen in a long time. They want to blame someone for something they don't even understand.

I think the issues at hand, is the radios had repeatedly failed at close range. Had they worked at close range.. with the 100's of firemen on the sceen... I'm sure a good portion of those 121 that died in the 2nd building, would have received the command to evac.

I'm sure they would have been able to get the message even fireman to fireman to most of them if the radios worked properly.

Hornet33 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 12, 2007, 04:23:51 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by crockett
I think the issues at hand, is the radios had repeatedly failed at close range. Had they worked at close range.. with the 100's of firemen on the sceen... I'm sure a good portion of those 121 that died in the 2nd building, would have received the command to evac.

I'm sure they would have been able to get the message even fireman to fireman to most of them if the radios worked properly.

And why I ask do you think they failed at close range?

My point is...it wouldn't have mattered what radio they had. Inside those buildings RF comms are going to suck no matter what. There was too many things causing interferance there. The one guy was talking about a fireman trapped in a basement and the guys up on the street couldn't hear him, but someone 2 miles away did. Seems pretty clear to me that the radio the fireman had was putting out just fine. Why didn't the guys up on the street hear him? There are tons of possibilities. Overhead power lines, too many other people up on the street using their radios at the same time, the engines on the fire trucks can cause interferance, who knows.

In 1993 they had the same problems with different radios. Gee I wonder why. Same location, same RF interferance problems because they were trying to use those things INSIDE a steel building.

RF comms is NOT an exact science. Too many things can cause you problems in close or at range and there is NO fix all to the problem. Here is anouther thing to think about. How many electrical outlets do you think were in the twin towers? Now ALL those outlets have a ground system, not to mention the lighting ground system. Those are DESIGNED to shunt any stray electrical energy to ground. Those guys were trying to use radios inside a giant lighting rod.

I know if one of my radios has a short to ground on the transmission side I don't talk to anyone. Also those type of radios operate in the VHF range. VHF requires a degree of line of sight to operate. You put a couple of tons of steel and concrete between 2 radios and they wont talk to each other. I've lost comms with a boat I could see 2 miles away because they were on the other side of the Hampton Roads Bridge/Tunnel. Once we cleared the bridge we could talk to them again.

Next time your on your cell phone and all of a sudden you loose signal, stop and take a look around you and see what sort of structures are nearby. See how many power lines are over head. Look for transmission towers of some sort.

Low power radios and stuff can't cut through that type of interferance. Inside those towers they would have needed a man packed radio putting out a hundred watts of power or better to get out, and like wise the guys outside would have needed the same type of power to get anything in. Handhelds only operate around 5 watts by FCC regulation. Vehicle type VHF rigs can go up to 25 watts.

Nothing G did or didn't do would have mattered in that situation.