Author Topic: Gun shops under closer scrutiny.  (Read 678 times)

Offline FrodeMk3

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Gun shops under closer scrutiny.
« on: July 12, 2007, 11:24:27 PM »
Wow, something's really starting to snowball here:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070713/ap_on_re_us/policing_gun_stores;_ylt=AtgFOdKkURwOQBYtOdE_R4hH2ocA

I noticed that it WASN'T front-page news, either.

(Edit): WTF? I just saw this on yahoo news, it was on the bottom, in with a bunch of other articles. It concerned gun stores allegedly selling firearms to known criminals. However, it very quickly expired (Bad press? LOL.)

Ok, try this one:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070713/ap_on_re_us/policing_gun_stores;_ylt=AvmWRvYpkgTqt7RGGLxy89Ss0NUE

Anyway, it was on Yahoo! news, under Gun shops under closer scrutiny.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 11:35:17 PM by FrodeMk3 »

Offline FrodeMk3

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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2007, 11:46:35 PM »
Alright, how 'bout this:

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By DAVID B. CARUSO, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 44 minutes ago
 


NEW YORK - When criminals need guns, they have plenty of options in a country with nearly 100,000 licensed gun stores. But drug dealers and other crooks don't shop just anywhere. They have their favorites.

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In Compton, Calif., gangsters preferred Boulevard Sales & Service, a shop police said was so felon-friendly, some salesmen offered tips on how to buy a gun despite a criminal record.

In Philadelphia, shady gun buyers sent girlfriends to a suburban pawn shop, Lou's Loan, where the staff wouldn't raise a fuss if a young woman came by a few times a month to purchase cheap handguns.

And on the outskirts of New Orleans, killers-to-be armed themselves at Elliot's Gun Shop. Over the past five years, the store was the source of 2,300 weapons later linked to crime, including an astonishing 125 homicides, according to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

In fact, government figures show that an extremely small number of gun shops account for a spectacularly large number of weapons used in crimes.

Stores like these have long occupied protected territory. The products they sell are legal. Congress has sheltered them from lawsuits and limited the power of regulators. It can take years for the ATF to revoke a dealer's license.

But there are signs that scrutiny is on the rise.

Over the past three years, ATF agents have cracked down on some of the stores most notorious for selling large numbers of weapons used in street crime. In 2005 and 2006, some 220 firearms dealers had their licenses revoked — 20 more than in the previous eight years combined.

More than two dozen stores have also been hit with lawsuits, most notably by the city of New York, where Mayor Michael Bloomberg has made gun control a talking point of what could be a nascent presidential campaign.

The pickup in enforcement action has delighted gun-control groups — and dismayed Second Amendment advocates, who say law-abiding merchants are being driven out of business.

"I've never run into a situation where a dealer has intentionally violated the law," said Richard Gardiner, a Virginia lawyer who represents gun dealers. If guns are being bought at these stores by criminals, "it is because they are being exploited by people who know how to beat the system."

Gun-control advocates, though encouraged by an increase in scrutiny, believe the government is still doing too little. The number of shops disciplined by the government, they say, represents just a fraction of those that aren't playing by the rules.

"There are bad apples out there," said Brady Center attorney Daniel Vice. "ATF knows who they are. The manufacturers know who they are. But most of them are still operating."

Much of what the government knows about where criminals get guns comes from the vast database the ATF uses to trace weapons found at crime scenes or confiscated by police.

The data shows that a majority of guns used by criminals are not stolen or smuggled in to the country. They are bought at federally licensed gun stores, often by "straw purchasers," people acting on behalf of others who cannot buy a weapon legally because of a criminal record.

The database also shows that most gun shops rarely, if ever, sell a weapon later linked to a crime. But a few shops account for a remarkably large number of these guns.

In a 2000 report, ATF officials said that nearly 40 percent of all weapons traced by the bureau originated from just 332 gun dealers nationwide. That means that less than 1 percent of the nation's gun stores supply nearly half of all weapons traced in connection with a crime.

"When you see something like that, you either have somebody who is corrupt or have someone with bad business practices," said Joseph Vince, a retired ATF agent and former chief of the bureau's crime gun analysis branch.

Gun shop owners dispute that accusation. Some stores, they say, simply sell a lot of weapons. Others are victims of location: They operate in neighborhoods convenient to the highways smugglers use to run weapons from gun-friendly states to Northern cities.

So far, Congress has sided with the stores. In 2003 it blocked the ATF from revealing information from its tracing database, including the names of the shops that sold the most weapons linked to crime.

On Thursday, a key House committee refused to remove the restrictions, despite a plea from Bloomberg earlier in the week after two police officers were shot with illegally owned guns in Brooklyn.

Speaking in Washington on Tuesday, the mayor said he believed lawmakers would change their minds about protecting the stores if they could meet the parents of the most gravely wounded officer, who clung to life Thursday.

The theory that some stores attract a criminal clientele because of shady business practices is the centerpiece of New York City's legal assault.

Last year the city sued 27 gun stores in five states, claiming they sold firearms recklessly. The city's targets included shops like Rooks Sales & Service, in Bishopville, S.C.

As gun stores go, Rooks is no superstore. The independently owned store serves a rural county with fewer than 21,000 people. The closest city, Columbia, is an hour away. New York City lies 660 miles to the north.

Yet between 1994 and 2002, at least 109 firearms sold by the store were later recovered by New York police.

One pistol was wielded by robbers at a housing project in Queens. A Tec-9 submachine gun turned up in the hands of a Staten Island teenager. A Manhattan man used a 9mm from the store to kill his wife. A Bronx man used a .25 caliber to wound his estranged girlfriend, then murder her 79-year-old grandmother.

There is no evidence that the people who committed those crimes ever visited Rooks themselves. Most are believed to have bought their weapons on the black market. But the city accused the store and others like it of fueling that underground trade by selling guns to people easily identifiable as straw purchasers.

To build its case, New York sent private investigators into dozens of stores, where they posed as the classic straw-purchase team: a man who picks out and pays for the weapon, and a woman who steps in to undergo the required criminal record check.

To their credit, many shopkeepers turned the couple away. Bloomberg called those who made the sale "rogue dealers."

That kind of talk infuriates Earl Driggers, one of the merchants sued by the city. Between 1994 and 2001, his family-owned chain of pawn shops in Georgia sold 48 guns later linked to crimes in New York, including a Bronx killing.

Driggers said no one wants guns to fall into the wrong hands. But he said he does everything a responsible gun salesman should when suspicious characters visit his shop: Sometimes he throws them out. Sometimes he calls ATF.

One time, he called in a tip that led to a good-sized bust. A customer who had bought dozens of inexpensive handguns was stopped by police, and wound up implicating accomplices in a ring that had smuggled as many as 200 guns to New York.

"I suspect that there are some people that New York City legitimately needed to go after, but I'm not one of them," Driggers said.

Driggers said he fired the clerk who fell for New York City's sting. He also joined a dozen other owners, including Rooks Sales, who settled the lawsuit.

Other store owners have been more defiant. Some of the shops and their supporters have countersued, claiming they were libeled by New York officials who had no authority to enforce gun laws in other states. Virginia lawmakers, outraged at the incursion, passed legislation banning similar stings.

ATF officials weren't pleased either, and asked New York to stop sending private investigators into gun stores.

But the ATF has been busy too, especially since 2003, when oversight of its firearms operation was transferred from the Treasury Department to the more powerful Justice Department.

In the past three years, 105 licensed gun dealers have been indicted on criminal charges because of ATF investigations — twice as many as between 2000 and 2002.

Agents raided Boulevard Sales & Service in March after conducting a sting of their own. Two clerks were charged with selling ammunition to felons who were secretly working with Los Angeles authorities.

Lou's Loan in Upper Darby, Pa., had its license revoked last summer. And in mid-May, ATF agents shuttered Elliot's Gun Shop. Its owner and two employees were charged with identity theft and illegal sales.

Last year, government statistics indicated that Elliot's was the No. 3 supplier of crime guns in the country. The No. 2 store, Trader Sports of San Leandro, Calif., lost its license last year.

Taking those disciplinary actions has not been easy.

By congressional mandate, agents are now generally allowed to inspect licensed dealers only once a year. To revoke a dealer's license, investigators must prove in court that a dealer willfully violated gun laws — a process that can take years.

Still, the extra scrutiny appears to be having an effect.

At Hot Shots Jewelry & Pawn in Marietta, Ga., customers are now questioned bluntly to make sure they aren't buying a weapon on behalf of someone else, said owner Melissa Paulette. Her store was among those that settled with New York.

"We don't want any more trouble," she said. "This has been the worst nightmare."
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Sorry about the broken linky's, everyone.

Offline Curval

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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2007, 07:40:03 AM »
Why do you hate America?
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Phaser11

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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2007, 07:59:51 AM »
Yea,
 I'll pay attention to this junk when they put the girl friend in jail for buying the gun for another person. You cannot buy a firearm for another person. It is all ready against federal law to do that.

 Also being an avid shooter/hunter, if a gun store is breaking the law, I'll be the first to report them. I give money every year for wetlands management, conservation and some times I even hunt with just a camera. This will be turned into a ban on all firearms.

This will be spun up and I'll get punished for something I did not do. I am a good guy. 22 years in the Airforce and I have worked for federal law enforcement for the last 8 years.

I DID NOTHING WRONG.

Phaser
Phaser11,

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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2007, 08:00:04 AM »
there are related stories where bloomberg has blown ongoing investigations by his illegal tactics.   He has been told to stop.

The real gist of the thing is that they have not been able to prove that even one gunstore broke the law.  

I imagine if they did an investigation on prescription drugs they would find that almost every drugstore has been fooled into selling perscription drugs illegally to criminals.

I have been following this somewhat in the "American Rifleman".  Virginia has pretty much told bloomberg to screw off.

This is pretty much a non story.   The gun dealers are under more scrutiny than just about any other business and they have a much better record than almost any other business.

Some of the shops being shut down by the ATF are not for criminal violations so much as for minor errors.   The feds make far more errors than the gunstores.

I believe that it is only about 4 gunstores in the last 7 years that had any real shaddy dealings.

Now compare that with businesses that hire illegals.  

With over 200 million guns floating around already in this country.. criminals will always be able to get a gun.

The real story is how idiotic the gun control crowd like bloomberg is.  He botched ongoing undercover operations.

I bet I could get a gun in bermuda curval in a week if I lived there..  I could make one in a relaxed afternoon.

lazs

storch

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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2007, 08:08:54 AM »
that may be true but how would those spindly pasty white legs look in pink shorts?

Offline Curval

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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2007, 08:10:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I bet I could get a gun in bermuda curval in a week if I lived there..  I could make one in a relaxed afternoon.

lazs


I would agree this is probably possible.

But, if you were caught with it you'd spend at least 20 years here at our expense.  You may not enjoy the accomadation though....I hear the gym is quite good, but the beach sucks due to the razor wire and there isn't a pool.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Curval

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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2007, 08:11:56 AM »
lol

Suprise suprise...here's Stich with a shorts comment.

Unfortunately I can still see his posts.  I tried to add him to my ignore list but apparently I cannot ignore him because he is an admin/moderator.

THAT explains quite a bit.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2007, 08:17:40 AM »
thanks curval... I think that you are proving my point about guns and the right to bear em.

gun laws don't prevent people from getting or using guns.  gun laws can't have any effect at all on gun crime or crime in general.

What does have an effect is gun law penalties.   If you allow everyone...  everyone not insane or underage... including ex cons the right to have any gun they want... but... you have a penalty for misuse that is say... the death penalty.. use one to rob a store and you get a mandatory death penalty...

people won't use guns badly.   your penalties are extreme... like englands.

They don't prevent anyone from getting a firearm or making one.. they simply make it to risky.

on the other hand... you could have a complete ban on all guns of any type but the only penalty would be say...  a $5 fine and no one would pay attention to the law.

It is not gun laws that lessen gun crime but gun law penalties.

The NRA has pushed for higher penalties for gun crime for decades.

lazs

storch

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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2007, 08:44:44 AM »
why would you be upset by lazs wearing shorts curval?

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2007, 08:48:39 AM »
I don't wear shorts... scares the children.

lazs

Offline Charon

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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2007, 09:03:02 AM »
For the most part, this new effort (along with Daley's failed effort to sue gun makers for guns misused in crime) is a back door attempt to do what they can't because of the Constitution and the legislative process.

Look at this statistic:

Quote
Yet between 1994 and 2002, at least 109 firearms sold by the store were later recovered by New York police.


What percent is that of all firearm sold by the shop during that 8 year period? Pretty small I would bet. And, how many of those "recovered by New York police" were recovered in the commission of a violent crime? In New York it is illegal, basically, to own a handgun. If you buy one for protection anyway and they happen to encounter it during a traffic stop or because your girlfriend was pissed off and dropped a dime or because of an unrelated search of your property then it gets "recovered." It might get recovered when a thief steals it from a legal homeowner in another state and sells it to a gang banger who uses it in a crime.

For example, "assault rifles" are actually used to commit a violent crime about 1 percent of the time, but Brady uses "crime trace data" (basically whenever a firearm is "called in") to imply that such weapons are used in 4 percent of crime. While that is still a very unimpressive figure, it does carry more weight when trying to ban those evil assault weapons "for the children" (who are often counted as children even if they are 22 years old with extensive criminal records).

I'm all for busting dealers that knowingly distribute to criminals. But, whenever such efforts are sponsored by Bloomberg, Daley, Brady or Giuliani you can bet that the ends will almost always justify the means. The "ends" is virtually a total ban on firearm ownership in America and the means are whatever they can get away with.

Charon

Offline Angus

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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2007, 12:54:26 PM »
What arms can you own and not in NY?
What is the law for arms in transit?

Just curious.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline FrodeMk3

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« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2007, 01:17:15 PM »
Curval, and others: I posted this because of 2 reasons.

1.It was barely covered, or hidden, news. VH1's new pop-trivia quest gets better coverage than an attack on the 2nd amendment. Pitiful.

2.That this is happening. I'm sure no-one thought that the government would just immediately stand up and say, "Deposit all of your firearms and ammunition at the nearest police station, We declare them forthwith to be illegal." They are much more patient than that. Also, the fact that even though some states have given Bloomberg, Daley, or Brady the finger, these three, and others like them, are prevailing. Why? They will use statistics (however they like to spin them) and will point out that closing down places like the ones' listed in the article, will decrease crime. They will use this as leverage to pass more restrictions, more laws, and shut more places down.

I don't hate my country, Curval. But I hate what it's becoming.

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2007, 01:35:09 PM »
You expect that areas over ridden with crime to be clean in all aspects?  The article tries to link all gun shops, to those who operate illegally in the nation's crime centers.


Seriously people, New Orleans, LA, Philly?  Is anyone surprised at this?
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