Author Topic: Toad (and any others with airline experience)  (Read 413 times)

Offline Dowding

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Toad (and any others with airline experience)
« on: May 10, 2007, 01:27:32 PM »
Toad, if I could call on your experience for my exam research as we had discussed before, that would be great!

One part of airline operations I'm looking at involves the maintenance of the aircraft. The company in the case study (which is a long haul Asian-based carrier) employs its own maintenance staff - for some reason I have the impression that this is not the norm? Is there alot of subcontracting and do the aircraft manufacturers do much of the maintenance/repair work?

If there was a movement towards subcontracting and rationalisation I'd be interested to know the effect on the workforce, particularly as in the case study there are rumblings of discontent over proposed rationalisation elsewhere in the business. Do you have any experience of industrial dispute caused by subcontracting? I'd be particularly interested in the strategies the companies have used to deal with industrial unrest, and how successful (or unsuccessful) they were.

If you can be any help on this, I'd be very grateful. Anyone else who might like to contribute, please feel free. Thanks.
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2007, 03:44:18 PM »
Dowding, I worked for Delta for 6.5 years.  We were watching as certain airlines were starting to subcontract their maintenace to people for cheaper than they could do it themselves.  Add the costs of salaried employees, benefits, pensions, and all the other hoopla up, and it gets very expensive.  On the other side companies that specialised in aircraft maintenance did not have the same fee structures as they did not pay benefits or pensions, so they could do it for much less.  

Hope that helps somewhat.
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Offline Toad

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Re: Toad (and any others with airline experience)
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2007, 06:20:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
One part of airline operations I'm looking at involves the maintenance of the aircraft. The company in the case study (which is a long haul Asian-based carrier) employs its own maintenance staff - for some reason I have the impression that this is not the norm?
[/b]

The guy you should really talk to is Creamo; he's in maintenance for American Airlines, IIRC.  I haven't seen him post here in a long time although he may shade here. You never know. I'm not really current in what they're doing; I've been out of it for about 5 years now.

While I was still active, however, it was common for all the US majors and near majors to do their own maintenance. From burned out light bulbs to heavy maintenance "letter checks", it was done within the airline.

I've often been in the big DAL hangar at ATL and seen aircraft stripped down to their stringers and spars, completely refurbished from the inside out and then painted in our own state of the art facility. That was back when DAL had money and a modicum of intelligence in the management suite. It's probably a shadow of its former self now.


Quote
Is there alot of subcontracting and do the aircraft manufacturers do much of the maintenance/repair work?
[/b]

Again, with DAL as the example I know best, our maintenance organization used to boast that they did everything you could do to our airplanes themselves except for two things: they didn't recap our tires and they didn't dry clean our seat covers. It was true back then; I doubt it is now.

Quote
If there was a movement towards subcontracting and rationalisation I'd be interested to know the effect on the workforce, particularly as in the case study there are rumblings of discontent over proposed rationalisation elsewhere in the business. Do you have any experience of industrial dispute caused by subcontracting?
[/b]

Again, Creamo would be far more current. DAL did not have any unions except for the pilots and flight dispatchers. This was primarily because DAL always paid just enough so that our workers made a bit more than other airlines union workers once you subtracted union dues. Or at least stayed so close that unions had a very hard time making inroads into the workforce. Bodhi would have better first hand knowledge on that.

DAL's old method for dealing with better prodcutivity from technology was just to not replace retiring workers or offering early retirement. This didn't cause much heartbreak. Also, when things weren't going well at DAL, management could ask for more work, more productivity and even pay cuts from all employees and get it. This was back when management had some credibility in two areas: intelligence and fairness. Perhaps the best example of this was when the employees bought the company a B767.  We knew our mangement would continue to work hard to improve the operation and we also knew that when times turned good again, they'd reward us for our loyalty.

That went out the window in the Ron Allen years; he was a simpleton with no loyalty to anyone but himself. He rapidly poisoned the well from which we all drank.

Anyway, in the good years at DAL, our guys were so good that other airlines came to us to get things done. A particular example was fitting the new engines to the old DC-8's. I think we had McDonnell or whoever it was do two airplanes with our guys watching. We did the 3rd ourselves and beat their time significantly. We got to the point where we beat their time by about 30%. Then other airlines started bringing their planes to us.

So, no, I have no experience of any dispute of subcontracting.

 
Quote
I'd be particularly interested in the strategies the companies have used to deal with industrial unrest, and how successful (or unsuccessful) they were.

If you can be any help on this, I'd be very grateful. Anyone else who might like to contribute, please feel free. Thanks.


I think in the past DAL had the correct strategy. Hire intelligent people and pay them market rate. Give them the proper tools to do their job. Treat them well, reward them in good times, ask them to share in the hard times.

When work needs to be done, explain the competition to them, tell them the true price they have to match and stand back and watch them work.

If you have hired smart people, given them proper tools and treated them well I think they will respond and give you a competitive price and a superior product.

One other little thing to note in airlines. Because of pass riding, your fellow employees, your family and their families are all riding on the quality of work you do. Pride counts for a lot; it makes you want to do your best. Too bad the modern management team doesn't have any and doesn't understand what it means.
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Offline Sundowner

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Toad (and any others with airline experience)
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2007, 06:54:23 PM »
Some interesting articles:

Chairman Oberstar's Statement for the House Aviation Subcommittee Hearing - March 29, 2007
Honorable James L. Oberstar, M.C. Opening Comments Before the House Aviation Subcommittee on The Federal Aviation Administration’s Oversight of Air Carrier Outsourced Maintenance

March 29, 2007

By Jim Berard 202-226-5064

I want to thank Chairman Costello and Ranking Member Petri for calling today’s hearing on The Federal Aviation Administration’s Oversight of Air Carrier Outsourced Maintenance.   In recent years, U.S. aviation has had a remarkable safety record.  The rate of fatal airline accidents involving passengers is about 0.01 per 100,000 departures -- about 1 in every 10 million flights.  This is laudable, especially in these tough economic times, with the airline losses at approximately $35 billion since the beginning of 2001.

However, while we have made great strides in aviation safety in the last several years, our work is not yet finished.  

I have long been concerned about the systematic outsourcing of airline maintenance, which has contributed to the elimination of over 27,000 maintenance jobs at mainline carriers since 2001....
http://transportation.house.gov/news/PRArticle.aspx?NewsID=156


San Francisco Chronicle
Airline maintenance comes under scrutiny
Carriers express confidence in outsourced work

David Armstrong, Chronicle Staff Writer

Friday, April 27, 2007
.....In 2005, nine major U.S. carriers outsourced 62 percent of the $5.5 billion they spent on maintenance, up from 37 percent in 1996, according to the Transportation Department.

The nation's airlines have outsourced maintenance for years, but the need to cut costs and streamline operations in recent years has pushed money-losing carriers to forgo doing most maintenance work at their owned-and-operated depots in favor of contracting with third parties. In the first three quarters of 2006, the amount of outsourced work hit 64 percent, an all-time high....
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/04/27/BUGPFPG1HT1.DTL

Looks like the airlines are squeezing American unionized maintenance labor out of the picture.

Regards,
Sun
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Offline cpxxx

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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2007, 08:05:24 PM »
At last a subject on O-Club I can claim some knowledge, for most of my working life I was involved in airline maintenance. With the caveat, that I have been out of the trade, with regret, for some ten years. However my brother in an Engineer with Aer Lingus so I am still in touch. I now work for a medical device company who thinks quality can be enforced by threats of disciplinary action.

I saw it from both sides, as an employee of an airline subsidiary who took in third party work and as an airline who sub-contracted.

I echo what Bodhi and Toad said. I worked for the engine overhaul facility of Aer Lingus. It's now owned by Lufthansa. Aer Lingus did it's own maintenance much like Delta or United or BA but they also took in outside work. But that side got so big they set up subsidiaries to cater for demand.
In my case it was a stand alone company with none of the salaries and benefits of the main airline. In effect they were sub contracting their own maintenance to a subsidiary and trying to attract business from other airlines. We had customers from all over the world. Usually airlines too small to have in house maintenance. Virgin, Wardair, Presidential Airlines, Iraqi Airways, Nigeria, Thai etc etc even the United States Air Force.

Aircraft manufacturers really do little maintenance work. It's not cost effective for them. They support Maintenance Repair Organisations (MROs). Usually they have an representative permanently based on site. We had a Pratt & Whitney rep and a CFM rep.

There is a lot of sub-contracting. These days only a few carriers like the Asian one you mentioned have in house maintenance. This can extend to ramp checks where the Engineers meeting and despatching the aircraft are not employees of the airline.  This applied to Aer Lingus (EI) at one stage, although ironically the company used was a spin off of the Aer Lingus MRO which was sold to FLS. So the staff were actually ex Aer Lingus. There was a point where some EI aircraft were met by EI employees and others by ex employees. But eventually it was realised that the EI engineers did a better job for less cost, so now it's all in house. But all other maintenance is sub contracted.

Even the ruthlessly capitalist Ryanair, keeps a corps of maintenance engineers for ramp work. They know that employees will always do a better job than sub contractors even if the sub contractor used to be an employee. For example if an aeroplane breaks down somewhere in Europe. It is a lot cheaper and better to put a couple of in house A&E's on the next plane out than it is to hire someone from another maintenance organisation of uncertain skillsets and abilities. My brother gets quite a few sudden trips overseas like that.  As Toad says, 'pride counts for a lot'.

That is not to say that outsourcing work neccessarily means a lowering of standards as is sometimes implied, particularly in the USA. Aviation is highly regulated industry no matter where you go and no MRO can afford to get a reputation for bad work, quite simply because there are many rivals ready to step in. My company was under the scrutiny of the Irish Aviation Authority, the British, Americans, Canadians, Thailand etc. The same applies elsewhere in the world. In fact as often as not, although the maintenance can be cheaper, the quality of work can in fact be higher than in house. MRO's in Asia and Europe operate to just as high standards as in the USA.

Aviation is one of the few industries left where there is a vestige of the old style camradery and pride in your company remains. I remember when we had a technical issue. We would often phone our rival and ask them how they did it and vice versa. Imagine Hewlett Packard calling Microsoft :rofl  In truth one of the biggest problems we had in my company was a tendency to 'gold plate' work. If an engine was sent in for light refurbishment, it would practically get almost the same as a full refurbishment. This had a disastrous effect on turn around times and profitability.

In terms of Industrial relations. I only know about Aer Lingus. Aer Lingus set up an engine facility away from the airport but the airframe maintenance subsidiary was simply renamed 'Team Aer Lingus'.  In effect the staff retained all the benefits of working for the airline although technically it was a separate company. The unions fearing a future sell off, demanded what came to be known as 'letters of comfort'. In effect they demanded the right to come back to Aer Lingus proper if the subsidiary was ever sold off. That came to pass when it was finally sold to FLS. Some were bought off but some insisted on returning to Aer Lingus even when in reality there were no jobs for them. Some ended up as baggage handlers on less money much to their disgust.




Actually the more I write, the more I realise how big a topic this is. You have your work cut out for you, Dowding my friend.

I would suggest, unless  you have already done this, you put a question on PPRuNe in the Engineers and Technicians forum on the same topic. But wear a tin hat, it can get very hot and heavy in PPRuNE these days.:noid
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 08:27:21 PM by cpxxx »

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2007, 09:27:54 AM »
Thanks for the replies guys. I only managed to get some time to properly look at this thread last night.

Sundowner - I'm going to look up those articles Sundowner over the next few days. I've been listening to an executive from British Airways talking about buying super-jumbo vs next generation replacement of exisitng aircraft, and he seemed to imply BA did most of their maintenance in house.

Toad:

Quote
Perhaps the best example of this was when the employees bought the company a B767. We knew our mangement would continue to work hard to improve the operation and we also knew that when times turned good again, they'd reward us for our loyalty.


That shows some pretty amazing employee loyalty. My only question is how did measure individual employee performance, or was it a more based on a particular department or even facility basis?

In the case study, union grumblings about rationalisation have been aired via newspapers, not directly to management. Sounds like there may be trouble ahead...

Quote
A particular example was fitting the new engines to the old DC-8's.


Is it commonplace to fit new engines to old airframes? Or do you mean engine replacement rather than a more fuel efficient etc variant?

Quote
Because of pass riding, your fellow employees, your family and their families are all riding on the quality of work you do. Pride counts for a lot; it makes you want to do your best. Too bad the modern management team doesn't have any and doesn't understand what it means.


That is something I've never thought of. Most people's work doesn't directly impact the safety of their family etc. I guess it would be pretty unethical to recommend pass riding if poor maintenance was raised as an issue in the exam.

What with Enron etc, ethics and accounting is a big subject these days.
:confused:

Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Toad.

cpxxx - there's a lot of stuff there. The detail around MROs is something I'll look further into. In the case study, the shareholders are essentially two large conglomerates and want to see costs cut to maximise their dividends. Unfortunately, the company is a premium quality operator, not low cost. However, maintenance is in house and maybe savings could be made by out-sourcing.

Then again, the potential union trouble could make that tricky.

You're right about the complexity of the industry, though. Maintenance and union-managment relations etc is only a little part of it. There's a whole part about whether the A380 or the B787 is purchased as well! Add to that the fact that the examiner gives us another 8-9 pages of unseen material on the exam day, makes this a pretty tricky exam. :(
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2007, 07:59:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
Toad:
That shows some pretty amazing employee loyalty. My only question is how did measure individual employee performance, or was it a more based on a particular department or even facility basis?
[/b]

There's a lot of backstory to it but the end result was that a few of the F/A's were given credit of dreaming it up (which isn't true.) The official line is here

I don't remember all the details now but it went something like this on the money end..

After much discussion, it was decided that a percentage of total payroll that equaled $30 million would be needed to pay for the plane figured over a year. Employees were given the opportunity (I mean that; there was absolutely no pressure on an individual to contribute) to donate 2% of their annual pay (IIRC; could have been more) to pay for the plane. This would be payroll deducted over a period of time. Employees could choose how fast they wanted to pay their share. I think you could take as long as four years.

I was pretty new on the airline then; two years with the company so I didn't make much and I elected to pay it all in one year of deductions. It was really pretty painless.

Our suppliers also chipped in so it was not all employee money. The tire manufacturers gave tires, avionics manufacturers gave avionics, etc. It was really an amazing thing.

Quote
Is it commonplace to fit new engines to old airframes? Or do you mean engine replacement rather than a more fuel efficient etc variant?
[/b]

Not anymore. However at that time our DC-8's were in good shape, hauled a lot of people and were very well liked by the traveling public. They sucked gas through firehoses though, so they were getting expensive to operate when.... taa-DAA... the CFM 56-2 engines arrived on the scene.  About a 20% reduction in fuel usage, more thrust, better reliability...what was not to like? Only problem was the dang thing didn't want to come down. IIRC, the first few weeks of operation guys were missing their descents by a long ways. Seems that the 4 CFM's at idle put out about the same thrust as 5 of the old engines at idle. Speed brakes got a lot of use about then.

I think our old 8's are still working for UPS.



Quote
That is something I've never thought of. Most people's work doesn't directly impact the safety of their family etc. I guess it would be pretty unethical to recommend pass riding if poor maintenance was raised as an issue in the exam.
[/b]

How'd you like to be the guy that passed a dodgy engine mount on a phase check only to have that engine fall off a month later with resultant loss of life? Especially if you were on it with your family? :)
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Offline -tronski-

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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2007, 04:36:18 AM »
Dowding I'd take a look at the current restructing of Qantas especially with reference to its subcontracting of its engineering and heavy maintenance overseas.

 Tronsky
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Offline Dowding

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« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2007, 02:15:57 PM »
Just a quick update guys - I got the results for my final exam today and am finally a qualified accountant after 3 years of study.

A big thanks for the information you all provided, it was very useful in understanding the industry and I actually suggested in the exam that employee funded aircraft purchase was an option to the company in question. :)

The points on maintenance and out-sourcing were useful too.

I am now going to get drunk.

:aok
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2007, 03:41:56 PM »
Jolly Good Show!

Enjoy the drunk and may your hangover be slight.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Dichotomy

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« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2007, 03:59:10 PM »
Congratulations Dowding :aok
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2007, 06:39:20 PM »
Congrats and welcome to your new career.
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Offline Curval

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« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2007, 07:02:23 PM »
Welcome brother.

;)
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