P38 vs. P51

[evenhaim]

to akak:

no offense but last time i fought you, you had a significant E advantage as i was freshly off a cv in what an f6f .... and i dont remember quiting i never do im stubburn you see.

Steve: let me rephrase the 38s low speed handling is amazing and nothing short of undefeatable in the right terms i have won some and lost some and i am very short of a super leet pony pilot thats skat:p  im just saying with the right handleing and throttle managment the pony does have a chance just because i play dumb and win sometimes doesnt mean it always works.  

but yes all  in all the 38 at Equal E or lower speeds has alot more of an advantage just makes us pony drivers work hard

hope that cleared it up i hate sounding pompous:o

[RoGenT]

I think everyone pretty much covered this one to the 'T' so just what I have learned, depending on the 38's pilot.. usually a banking turn or snap roll seems to help me

[LEADPIG]

I think 38 pilot's get more pilot wounds cause we have big heads and it's a lot easier to hit it while it's sitting on our neck in the canopy.

[Hazard69]

P38s will chew pony's all day long, unless the pony has initial advantage in Alt, Speed or Weight.
In terms of handling, the pony handles sharper, crisper whereas 38 generally lags a bit. But the 38 can continue maneuvering for longer and usually will end up on the pony's six.
A skilled pony will realize that at 150-200mph, his roll is a bit better and will try to use that for a rolling scissors and the 38 may lose angles to that. The P38 can then go into successive hi-lo yo-yos and if the pony attempts to follow he's dead cause he cant hang at 80mph like a 38 can.

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by Hazard69
P38s will chew pony's all day long, unless the pony has initial advantage in Alt, Speed or Weight.
 

Let's duel and find out. I'll even fly the pony.

[ROCKY1x]

I superficially know the strengths and weaknesses of these A/C, but I got caught today and shot down. I'm wondering if I had a better option.

I was in a 38L. I just finished a strafing pass on a field, and was at perhaps 400 ft, and probably a little over 330 mph. After the pass, I could see I had a Mustang at my 6 at 1.5k. He probably dove from 5 or 6 k feet to get on my six.

What's my best option here? I chose to go to WEP and start a gentle climb. I blew up in no time at all. He just overtook me and got me with his first fifty bullets.

Was that situation survivable? Could I have extended with my last 400 ft of altitude? Would a spiral climb have done me any good?

The guy was probably a better stick than me, and a much better shot.

I think your speed, alt and separation were pretty good considering the situation.  I would have kept max speed as long as pony was gaining, slowing a bit too draw him in if not.  Always keeping a little angle or slide to throw off gun solution, until @ 600-800yds.  Then cut throttle start repeated hard flat scissors, with lot of rudder/stick.  As you cut back across his nose extend airlerons/trim...it'll give you a nice dip under his nose (thats where lil alt is good).  If he sticks to your six just continue, he can't stay there long.  He'll freq overshoot and you'll have a decent shot.  If he climbs out steeply...hard throttle up, stay on deck when the comes back more or less same.
If I'm 500-1800ft alt barrel roll might be better, less e lost.  Another option low yo-yo reverse, maybe burn his e down.
If 2000ft alt split-S and climb up to him as long as your e is good.  Or if your damaged, bingo ammo, too many enmy, etc...double split-S, hit the deck, he'll never find ya (and you'll be heading home in your original vector).
For all situations excellent cockpit views are a must.
Let me know if any of this stuff works...I might even try it myself!!!...

Salute All,

ROCKY

[redman555]

u dont need any tips rocky, u r the best 38 piolet i know

- bigbob

[detch01]

Originally posted by ROCKY1x
I think your speed, alt and separation were pretty good considering the situation.  I would have kept max speed as long as pony was gaining, slowing a bit too draw him in if not.  Always keeping a little angle or slide to throw off gun solution, until @ 600-800yds.  Then cut throttle start repeated hard flat scissors, with lot of rudder/stick.  As you cut back across his nose extend airlerons/trim...it'll give you a nice dip under his nose (thats where lil alt is good).  If he sticks to your six just continue, he can't stay there long.  He'll freq overshoot and you'll have a decent shot.  If he climbs out steeply...hard throttle up, stay on deck when the comes back more or less same.
If I'm 500-1800ft alt barrel roll might be better, less e lost.  Another option low yo-yo reverse, maybe burn his e down.
If 2000ft alt split-S and climb up to him as long as your e is good.  Or if your damaged, bingo ammo, too many enmy, etc...double split-S, hit the deck, he'll never find ya (and you'll be heading home in your original vector).
For all situations excellent cockpit views are a must.
Let me know if any of this stuff works...I might even try it myself!!!...

Salute All,

ROCKY

This will get you killed in the situation you're commenting on. Rule of thumb when attacking is never, ever cross your targets 3-9 line (draw an imaginary line from the leading edge of one wingtip to the other - don't cross this). Any player with a little experience and a few smarts will make a gun run on you, go vertical, reset and do it again - rinse and repeat for those who shoot as badly as I do.
A split S will work if you time it properly but it will leave you in a worse setup than the one you avoided with it.
If you get caught with a pony (or any fighter for that matter) on your high six or with the E to crawl up your backside, learn to recognize it early and turn into the attack before he can get a gun solution on you. Keep your speed up and try to fight uphill as much as possible to wear down his E advantage. But, keeping your speed up well inside your best maneuvering envelope is more important. Still, any altitude you can earn will take away from his E. Try to manuever so that your attacker has to pull G when he's fast - when he's moving toward you move toward him, when he moves away, you move away from him. When he climbs you climb a little bit - remember to keep your speed up. Be patient, stay out of his guns and eventually he'll make a mistake, lose his E advantage or go off in search of easier prey. Your whole attitude here should be aggressive. If you go defensive you'll almost certainly get nailed.
If you've got a pony crawling up your six from 1.5kyds out at 500mph and you're doing 330mph if you're not already in a hard break turn you're meat.


my $0.02

asw

[ROCKY1x]

"This will get you killed in the situation you're commenting on."

WHOA....ROFLOL!!!  Obviously, some amongst us are much more knowledgable than the rest!

Seriously though, I think all the opinions stated are based on individual experiences and are quite helpful.  My experience may, or may not, be limited but I do enjoy the game and fly the P-38 with some regularity.

I would LOVE to see some of these manuevers, nothing works better for me than visualization!  Anyone know how to post a film clip here???

Salute All,

ROCKY

[Fianna]

Originally posted by detch01
This will get you killed in the situation you're commenting on. Rule of thumb when attacking is never, ever cross your targets 3-9 line (draw an imaginary line from the leading edge of one wingtip to the other - don't cross this). Any player with a little experience and a few smarts will make a gun run on you, go vertical, reset and do it again - rinse and repeat for those who shoot as badly as I do.

Sooner rather than later, if you keep doing that, the P38 will have an E state close enough to the pony to become the attacker in the fight. If you don't kill the 38 in the first few passes, your only choice to live is to run. Assuming pilots have comparable skill levels.

[detch01]

Originally posted by Fianna
Sooner rather than later, if you keep doing that, the P38 will have an E state close enough to the pony to become the attacker in the fight. If you don't kill the 38 in the first few passes, your only choice to live is to run. Assuming pilots have comparable skill levels.

Only if you carry it to the extreme. Nothing works forever unless you're fighting very very basic AI.  What it boils down to is knowing your own ride and having a very good idea of what your target's ride can do and doing what is necessary to put the target's scalp in the bag. The 38 is a good fighter but it's not a great one in all circumstances. Neither is the pony, but the pony is a better fighter in more circumstances than the 38's. The only times a pony is less capable than the 38's is when the fight is below ~225mph or in a HO situation.

asw

[Rino]

Originally posted by redman555
u dont need any tips rocky, u r the best 38 piolet i know

- bigbob

     Better than Delirium?  This I gotta see.

[Fianna]

Originally posted by detch01
Only if you carry it to the extreme. Nothing works forever unless you're fighting very very basic AI.  What it boils down to is knowing your own ride and having a very good idea of what your target's ride can do and doing what is necessary to put the target's scalp in the bag. The 38 is a good fighter but it's not a great one in all circumstances. Neither is the pony, but the pony is a better fighter in more circumstances than the 38's. The only times a pony is less capable than the 38's is when the fight is below ~225mph or in a HO situation.

asw

What do you mean by "to the extreme?"


And I'm confused about the statement that a pony is better in more circumstances than a 38. Is this because the pony can always run away?

If you're talking about survivability, I agree with you. But if you're talking about shooting someone down, the 38 can do almost everything better than the pony.

In the pony, you have to stay fast. This cuts down your ability to maneuver, because maneuvering burns E. This basically leaves you to make BnZ or slashing passes at your target. But not too many, because too much maneuvering burns E, and E is really your only weapon in the pony.

In the 38, you can slow down if you need to. The plane will still handle pretty well. You don't need to rely on BnZ or slashing attacks, although this is something that the 38 is also pretty good at. You can fight in the vertical with pretty much everything.



The 38 is great at nothing, but good at everything. The pony is great at going fast, but not that good at everything else.

[Fianna]

Originally posted by Rino
Better than Delirium?  This I gotta see.

Plane really doesn't make a difference... If someone is better than you in one plane, chances are they're better than you in every plane. ACM is the same.

[detch01]

Originally posted by Fianna
The pony is great at going fast, but not that good at everything else.

You haven't spent enough time in the pony if you believe that. The pony will out roll the 38, out climb it, out scissor it and provided you are above 275mph will out turn it and out zoom it. And yes the pony will out run the 38's. If you want to stay stuck in the popular prejudice against the pony, that's fine by me.


asw