P38 vs. P51

[Nangleator]

I superficially know the strengths and weaknesses of these A/C, but I got caught today and shot down.  I'm wondering if I had a better option.

I was in a 38L.  I just finished a strafing pass on a field, and was at perhaps 400 ft, and probably a little over 330 mph.  After the pass, I could see I had a Mustang at my 6 at 1.5k.  He probably dove from 5 or 6 k feet to get on my six.

What's my best option here?  I chose to go to WEP and start a gentle climb.  I blew up in no time at all.  He just overtook me and got me with his first fifty bullets.

Was that situation survivable?  Could I have extended with my last 400 ft of altitude?  Would a spiral climb have done me any good?

The guy was probably a better stick than me, and a much better shot.

[Guppy35]

As one who is generally lower then the 51s all the time in my 38G, I find that you can get good at timing the break and getting them to blow the pass because they are moving so fast.

Most don't throttle back but come in at light speed and easily miss the shot when you break.

The good 51 sticks will anticiapte the break and throttle back some to allow them to adjust.

Again most won't do that and will get frustrated and then slow trying to turn with ya, then you kill em

Based on what you are describing, I'd have broken hard up and to the left or right and trusted he was going too fast to make the shot.

[Widewing]

Try this.....

My regards,

Widewing

[Nangleator]

63mph in a dogfight.  

Maybe it was a graphical glitch, but it looked like you had flaps out during a climb at 120mph.

I'll have to see if I can fly like that in an L.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Nangleator
63mph in a dogfight.  

Maybe it was a graphical glitch, but it looked like you had flaps out during a climb at 120mph.

I'll have to see if I can fly like that in an L.

38 drivers get the flaps out early and often.  Combat flaps first but once it drops below 150 you get em out quick so it's not a glitch for flaps and climbing at 120

[Fianna]

First, I would have stayed level for a bit so I could get a good estimate of his E-state.

If he had more E than me, I would have started a gentle flat turn and gradually tightened it as he got closer, eventually pulling up and rolling in the opposite direction so I would be behind him after he overshot. If after that he tried to turn with me, I'd follow him. If he pulled up to reposition for another attack, I'd push my nose low to pick up some speed and extend, and get him to burn more E for his next pass.


If I had more E I probably would have started a slow spiralling climb to the right, dropping all flaps just as I was about to stall to get my nose 90 degrees up. From there the 38 flips over and the nose drops straight down so he'd hopefully be stalling 400-600 in front of you.

[Nangleator]

I guess you just have no choice but to present that big barn door of your top aspect, for at least a little bit.  Or can you make that turn tight enough to avoid any shot at all?

Thanks for the replies.

[Fianna]

That's the idea. You show them that big huge target, and they can't help themselves. They go flying past.

http://www.speedyshare.com/335327465.html

[humble]

My 1st thought is that this isnt a 38 vs 51 issue. It's really a "I got bounced" issue. I've been flying the A-20 alot so its inevitable. If you got back a bit you can find some A-20 clips that might give you some thoughts. Separate out both relative plane capabilities and pilot skill....since neither got you killed.

1) When you get bounced your 1st goal is to survive the bounce...as a general rule a "gentle" anything wont help. A "gentle" climbing anything is even worse....basically you flew the clay pigeon defense. How violent your evasive is depends on when you pick the bogey up. At 1.5k your outside of guns so you have a bit of option. Since you have no real alt to work with I'd wait to 1200 and start a gentle nose low turn and tighten it at 800 (which is probably 600 to him) if he rolls away then level and watch...if he tightens then you need to chop pop and barrel roll looking for a rolling scissors...

2) once you survive now your in a fight that you can potentially gain equal footing since the pony is greatly neutered. Every pass lets you gain some E if the pony driver is not a stud....

[Ack-Ack]

Took a page from the Blonde Knight and if I'm getting bounced by a bogie like the original poster describes, I wait until the bogie is about 1,000 -  800 yards out.  Then I give full rudder (direction depending on where I want to break) and then push forward and to the left/right (same direction as rudder).  Puts me under their nose where they'll most likely loose momentary sight of me and will put me out of their cone of fire.

ack-ack

[CAP1]

Originally posted by Nangleator
I superficially know the strengths and weaknesses of these A/C, but I got caught today and shot down.  I'm wondering if I had a better option.

I was in a 38L.  I just finished a strafing pass on a field, and was at perhaps 400 ft, and probably a little over 330 mph.  After the pass, I could see I had a Mustang at my 6 at 1.5k.  He probably dove from 5 or 6 k feet to get on my six.

What's my best option here?  I chose to go to WEP and start a gentle climb.  I blew up in no time at all.  He just overtook me and got me with his first fifty bullets.

1)not sure if this is right or not.......but i think at that distance, i'd have throttled back a little, and started a flat turn...either right or left.....holding turn just bordering blackout, for about 90 degrees or so, then exit this turn into a roll of opposite direction from the turn.....all the while watching him...if i do and time this right, it almost always guarentees an overshoot, and since he was probably in the ballpark of 450-500mph, i'd be willing to bet he'd have gone right by ya......and possibly dumb enough to give ya at least one quick snap shot by trying to match your turn. this seems to work for me about 40-50% of the time........hope this helps ya a bit?


Was that situation survivable?  Could I have extended with my last 400 ft of altitude?  Would a spiral climb have done me any good?

The guy was probably a better stick than me, and a much better shot.

<>

john

[DoLbY]

Well, I can't say I've lived with this moves too many times but does happen now and then.


1 - wait until 1.5 -1M

2. Pull up and left (or right, depending on which way he dove from)

3. Snap roll into wing over



When I dive, depending on how far the other guy is (mainly SPITs), I'll go into one upside down with throttle back so if he makes move, i can turn into it little bit more

[DoLbY]

sorry typo - snap roll OR wing over

[Benny Moore]

I know you were at 400 feet, but I still would have done as much of a split-S as I could have.  It would have actually been simply a very nose-low turn.  With him  1,500 feet away, you should have been able to get perpendicular to him by the time he was in firing position.  Just as you think he should fire, pull up hard to dodge then turn into him again.  That's my two cents.

[Nangleator]

At current exchange rates, your $0.02 is worth a lot to me.  Thanks.