Corsair vs. Lightning Flaps

[Raptor]

No film, so going on what each pilot said, which lessens the debate legitimacy I know. But I will throw it out anyway.

First, each pilot's conditions
AKDogg:
F4u-1 and upped with 75% fuel and climbed to 8k
Raptor:
Upped a P38L with 50% fuel and 2 DTs, dropped my DTs 5 minutes before engaging. Starting engagement at 10k.

Background:
AKDogg had alt on me all night and this was my first alt advantage, I burnt my E so I would be able to turn with him. We got in a spiraling fight with me on his 6 all the way to the deck. He kept his gear up while I put out my dive flaps. He made several attempts to force me to overshoot but I stayed behind him. I know in AH the F4u (especially -1) will out turn the P38L. There is currently a debate on the F4U's turning ability but I did not feel this belonged there.

When we reached the deck he tried to force another overshoot and I stayed behind him using rudder. I had 4 knotches of flaps down because I was going to fast to deploy the 5th knotch. He stated he was at 130mph and I was at 125mph.

Event:
AKDogg put out full flaps and went into a vertical climb (roughly 90º change of direction... spiraling as he climbed). He was able to climb 700ft (guesstimating) and use full rudder to level off his F4u at the top of his climb.
I tried to climb with AKDogg but was not able to make as abrubt change of direction as AKDogg did. I retracted my dive flaps and put out full flaps as I lost speed in the climb. I was only able to climb 500ft (another guesstimation) even though I had not made as abrubt changes in direction.
I was able to level off at the top of the climb but he managed to use his rudder to point his corsair 45º (he said 60mph or less at top of climb) to nose on me, as I began to stall out.

Any other plane would have lost too much E making such abrubt manouvers, that a P38 would have been able to loop over.

Issue:]
Are the F4u full flaps over modelled? Fowler flaps should be more efficient than conventional flaps. When the P38 FM was remodelled, HiTech made sure to give it increased drag at full flaps, it seems the F4u lacks this drag.
Should a manouvering F4u be  able to out climb a P38 following a straight path with a 5mph difference in air speed?


NOTE:
This has nothing to do with turning radius, but climbing ability. And I have nothing against AKDogg, he is the only AK I've seen fly aggressively, and if I were in an F4u I would fly it as far as AH allowed as well.

[Ack-Ack]

Not that it would have made a difference but dive flaps are useless below 300mph IAS if you're going to use them to aid in turning.  They are only effective that way above 300mph IAS.


ack-ack

[Raptor]

Was using them to aid in drag to stay behind his F4u, his airspeed was 130 while mine was 125 at the point of the climb.

[Mobius_1]

First of all, IMHO if you were being smart, you would not have followed him to the deck.  You would have disengaged and come back around.  That's Energy fighting.  If you follow someone to the deck, you will eventually run out of all your E, which is something you do not want to do in a p-38.  You probably know this, but I figured I'd shine a little light on the subject.

I know I didn't answer anything about your flaps question, but perhaps you will heed my suggestion.

Fly on

[Raptor]

That is flying boring in my book and I'll take the P38 to the deck low and slow any day.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Raptor
Was using them to aid in drag to stay behind his F4u, his airspeed was 130 while mine was 125 at the point of the climb.

It's not going to work that way, as the design of the dive flaps is to give the plane a positive pitch to aid in pull outs.  That's why they can be used to help in high speed turns but to use them to slow you down, it's just not going to work like dive brakes.  If you want to dump E quick, use your rudders.  Those suckers act like dive brakes.


ack-ack

[dtango]

Oh dear.  Raptor, are you sure you really want to go there ?  We just spent 9 pages in a similar thread on the Corsair's turn performance.

Are the F4u full flaps over modelled? Fowler flaps should be more efficient than conventional flaps.

Here's the short answer.  You're comparing apples and oranges.  This is only a true statement if you're comparing flaps on the same wing on the same aircraft.  It's an oversimplification to conclude that this holds true between two different aircraft with different wings without considering the other relevant aerodynamic factors.

Just FYI, looking at some NACA wind tunnel data I've been amazed by and impressed with the efficiency of the F4U's flaps.

Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Mobius_1
 If you follow someone to the deck, you will eventually run out of all your E, which is something you do not want to do in a p-38.  You probably know this, but I figured I'd shine a little light on the subject.
 

While that statement is true in any plane, you should know that the P-38 is also quite capable in the angles fighting department as is one of the better stall fighters in the game.  I would only recommend to those that are inexperienced in flying the P-38 to keep their energy up but those that have some experience and know how to use the flaps, getting caught low and slow in the P-38 isn't something to be afraid of.  But with all things, it depends on the pilots experience level and of course YMMV.


ack-ack

[Raptor]

Thanks for that input dtango. Here is what is going on in my head.
P38 with Fowler flaps, no torque, going relatively straight (less drag) at nearly the same speed unable to climb to the same height with the same amount of control as the F4u with lots of torque, making rapid changes in direction (more drag from control surfaces like rudder and ailerons)

I noticed Brooke did say he felt the P38 flaps were undermodeled in AH (Benny Moore pointed this out, not sure if he got an answer regarding this, got lost in the discussion). Yes I like the P38, but I would only bring up an arguement on its FM if there were reason to believe it were incorrect in AH. Right now I don't have any knowledge of this but if someone like Brooke says that I must wonder why he would say that.

[Fianna]

Dogg's a really good cartoon pilot, and I think his specialty is the -1 hog. It doesn't surprise me that he did something his plane "shouldn't" be able to do.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Fianna
Dogg's a really good cartoon pilot, and I think his specialty is the -1 hog. It doesn't surprise me that he did something his plane "shouldn't" be able to do.

Agreed.  He handles his E really well.  made the mistake of trying to follow him up in the J the other night.  Bad call

Might have hung with him in the G but it woulda been close.

[Saxman]

The F4U will surprise a LOT of people in the spiral climb.

Additionally, climbing with flaps generally degrades your climbing ability more than it helps.

Torque effects are also pretty misunderstood. People seem to think torque means constantly fighting the plane to maintain level flight, which isn't the case as proper trim will negate the tendency to roll even at low speeds. And while torque DOES contribute to the F4U's port wing drop during the stall, the operative part of the phrase is DURING THE STALL. The only other noteworthy effect of torque is that the F4U resists rolling to the right at low airspeeds unless engine power is reduced, itself relatively easily countered with either liberal use of rudder, (which the F4U arguably has the most effective rudder of any fighter in the game) or careful throttle management.

[CAP1]

Originally posted by Raptor
Thanks for that input dtango. Here is what is going on in my head.
P38 with Fowler flaps, no torque, going relatively straight (less drag) at nearly the same speed unable to climb to the same height with the same amount of control as the F4u with lots of torque, making rapid changes in direction (more drag from control surfaces like rudder and ailerons)

1)i'm not sure if this might account for what you're trying to get at....but i believe the 38 is significantly heavier than the f4u? if so, then at such a low starting speed, i thinkn he'll be able to overcome gravity much easier than you in a 38, as you both need to rely on the horsepower to get ya up, rather than stored energy. not sure if i'm right, but figured i'd throw it out there!

<>

john


I noticed Brooke did say he felt the P38 flaps were undermodeled in AH (Benny Moore pointed this out, not sure if he got an answer regarding this, got lost in the discussion). Yes I like the P38, but I would only bring up an arguement on its FM if there were reason to believe it were incorrect in AH. Right now I don't have any knowledge of this but if someone like Brooke says that I must wonder why he would say that.

[Raptor]

P38 may be heavier but has 2 engines to pull it up CAP1. I don't know the weight/power ratios of the two aircraft but the P38 is no bomber.

Originally Posted by WideWing
3) In a zoom climb (and that is what you generally do in a dogfight), a Co-E Spit16 and P-38J both go vertical at full power. The P-38 will initially pull ahead. Why? Inertia. The heavier fighter will have the advantage initially. Don't believe me? Get someone to fly a 109K-4 and you take an A-20G. Fly level side-by-side at 300 mph and pull into a pure vertical climb at the same time. The A-20 will pull away from the 109 and it will do so until gravity overpowers it. I've killed many an uber fighter whose pilot was dumb enough to go vertical against my A-20. Fighting the Spit16 in the vertical is the one area where the Spit has no clear-cut advantage

I'm not saying anything bad against Dogg as a cartoon pilot, but this is something beyond piloting IMO. I just want some justification for the F4u's better vertical climb with control surfaces adding extra drag.

[Saxman]

One thing to consider is fuel load, Raptor. The F4U-1 at 75% fuel I believe carries somewhat less fuel than a P-38 at 50%. Also keep in mind that you used drop tanks as well, while Dogg was likely flying slick, so knowing best flight procedures in the F4U-1 and 1A, he had almost certainly burned off his wing tanks and was working on his main by the time you engaged.

So, in addition to being in a plane with a greater dry weight, you're ALSO probably carrying a heavier load of fuel which is going to affect your rate of climb.

Another thing to keep in mind:

While the P-38 on a normal straight climb will out climb the F4U-1, this measurement is ALSO I believe under optimal climb speed. The F4U was able to get off the ground carrying over 4000lbs of ordinance from very short runways under full flaps, not to mention they're intended to help get a 12,000lb aircraft off a carrier deck less than 900ft long (if not SHORTER, as the aircraft may not necessarily have the full deck to get to speed). Based on this alone, I wouldn't find it surprising if the F4U can INDEED out-climb the P-38 in a straight climb under near-stall conditions with full flaps. Does anyone here know if there were ever tests run on edge-of-stall full-flap rates of climb in the F4U and P-38?