Author Topic: How to land a 190 missing a wingtip (Read 1040 times)

Krusty · « **on:** July 30, 2007, 09:13:42 PM »

Missing the RIGHT wingtip.

http://www.nakatomitower.com/190a8_1winglanding.ahf

The next day I found myself in a situation with the LEFT wingtip gone, and was just barely able to get flaps out, but was unable to stay level when attempting to land at a v-base. Not saying it's impossible, but much harder. I rolled over even with full rudder and crashed/ditched.

mtnman · « **Reply #1 on:** July 30, 2007, 10:19:17 PM »

Good idea for a post Krusty! I'm surprised by how often I see people just give up and auger in after losing a wingtip. Of course, maybe they lose control, or don't want to rtb damaged, but still...

I find I can rtb safely w/o a wingtip 19 out of 20 tries with my F4U, which I believe is easier than in the 190.

My standard method is to exit the fight, and fast! I sometimes "fake" loss of control so my opponent will leave me alone. As I exit the fight I trim aileron all the way away from the damaged side, and sometimes need a bit of rudder too. I often (always?) need to hold rudder as well. W/O manual trimming landing is REALLY tough w/o a wingtip.

On approach, I get my gear down, and I only drop a few notches of flaps (2 in the hog). With the flaps down I can re-trim aileron and rudder back closer to normal. I keep a fair amont of throttle on all the way down, and keep my speed higher than normal. I try to set up my turn onto final so I can turn AWAY from the damaged wing.

I normally land gear-down, but if the landing is going bad, and I'm lined up on the runway I sometimes belly slide.

Landing on the CV helps too, if you have a plane with a tailhook. :^)

MtnMan

Krusty- Saber and I will be going through Denver (picking my brother up at the airport in early September. We'll be heading down to Pagosa Springs for muzzleloader elk. If things work out, maybe meet up with you for a brew?

Guppy35 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 31, 2007, 02:26:45 AM »

You mean you are supposed to land with wing tips?

Why don't people tell me these things!

Ghosth · « **Reply #3 on:** July 31, 2007, 06:19:44 AM »

A lot depends on the plane, generally speaking the faster a plane is the easier it seems to be to fly with one wingtip missing.

IE bombers don't do it at all, P51's, la7's, and tiffy's do it pretty well.

This is where knowing your manual trim really helps.

Also speaking for myself, flaps can really mess up your final approach.
I may or may not worry about dropping gear. Everything you do to slow your plane down makes it that much harder to keep flying and controlled. If I do drop flaps & gear its going to be the very last possible second once I'm coming over the threshold. Also you want to come in as low and flat as possible in case you can't hold it. Then hopefully the wing scrapes and can't roll you over.

Bronnco · « **Reply #4 on:** July 31, 2007, 08:10:49 AM »

I had the chance to do this in a spit, missing the left wing tip. I had to ride hard right rudder and keep speed up as much as possible. Unfortunatly as soon as I arrived at base and droped gear...it caused the left side to pull down and I could not pull out. Im assuming this was caused by loss of speed. Ill go belly in next time.

Krusty · « **Reply #5 on:** July 31, 2007, 08:30:47 AM »

You can't belly in missing a wingtip, because most times 1) you're too fast (instant boom) or 2) you're sliding sideways off the runway (defeating the point of landing anyways).

Mtnman, good luck on the hunting trip. I'm just too busy during the week and have to spend the weekend with the family or doing chores (that don't get done during the week). I'll have to pass, but thanks for the suggestion.

mtnman · « **Reply #6 on:** July 31, 2007, 09:21:43 AM »

Bellying in w/o a wingtip is easy. If not easier than with gear, than certainly not any harder. I just use gear so in the off chance I stop off the runway I can taxi back on for a safe landing.

As long as speed is lower than 150, you get no "boom".

Again, I only use the gear so I can taxi, but honestly I can't remember the last time I stopped off the runway, either with or without gear.

Maybe I get too much practice landing damaged.

I understand the busy schedule Krusty! We're trying to coordinate meeting times as it is after a 14 hour drive, so I'm not sure how feasible it would be anyway...

MtnMan

Krusty · « **Reply #7 on:** July 31, 2007, 09:32:28 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by mtnman
Maybe I get too much practice landing damaged.

I hear ya!!! There was this one time where I was losing oil, half a wingtip gone, pilot bleeding out, blacking out, the only thing near was a CV, so I come down rudder, flaps, just between blackouts put 'er on the deck, smash sideways into the tower (saved me from falling off the deck) and I came to a rest blacked out.

My first thought was, "Damn, I'm getting too good at this kinda stuff!"

mtnman · « **Reply #8 on:** July 31, 2007, 09:45:16 AM »

I will say that if you do get too slow, you die. You'll end up in this crazy stall/spin thing that makes me feel like a piece of paper dropped from a skyscraper.

Since I'm usually trying to rtb as quickly as possible, I'm full throttle most of the way home.

I use my gear as brakes to get me under 225 so I can get a notch, and then another notch of flaps down. Then I can trim my remaining aileron back closer to normal. I keep my throttle at a much higher setting than normal on approach to keep my speed around 175-180.

Any slower, and I die, any more flaps and I die.

I then line up and land. LOTS of rudder is often needed to keep the stubby wing from dropping. If it does, you die. The hogs large rudder has a lot to due with landing it damaged.

My decision to land gear up or gear down is made about 3 seconds before I touch down. If things look good, it stays down. If things are looking squirrelly, I raise them so I can slide down the runway w/o drifting off. If I drift off things have gone badly to the point I'll likely break one gear off, leaving me off the runway.

My single biggest obstacle to a safe wingless landing is the bogie originally on my six, or another that finds me rtb.

I know I have film of wingless CV landings, it wouldn't be hard to produce some with gear up and gear down on a landing strip. I don't have a way to host it though.

MtnMan

mtnman · « **Reply #9 on:** July 31, 2007, 09:47:08 AM »

Lol, wish you'd have filmed that one Krusty!

BaldEagl · « **Reply #10 on:** July 31, 2007, 10:09:42 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ghosth
A lot depends on the plane, generally speaking the faster a plane is the easier it seems to be to fly with one wingtip missing.

IE bombers don't do it at all, P51's, la7's, and tiffy's do it pretty well.

I don't think speed of the plane makes a difference at all. It just depends on the plane.

I can land a F6F-5 (one of the mid-speed planes) with only half a wing one or both each sides while FW190's (one of the faster planes) are difficult to control when you slow down on final approach.

Between similar planes the Spit is easy to handle missing half of one or both wings while the C.205 is nearly uncontrollable.

mtnman · « **Reply #11 on:** July 31, 2007, 02:54:31 PM »

They are definately easier to land when you are missing BOTH wingtips, at least if you can get a notch of flaps down and use rudder to bank. I tend to forget I have no ailerons though and wonder why I can't get my plane to do what I want.

Personally, I'm fairly surprised to see a 190 or 109 fly by UNDER CONTROL, even with no damage. I flew a 190 a few years back, and that was enough of that! I would think landing one with damaged wings would be more difficult than in an F4U.

I've landed spits missing wingtips too, and that wasn't all that rough either.

The last 20ft of altitude is definately the worst part of the whole deal, with the lower airspeed.

MtnMan

Krusty · « **Reply #12 on:** July 31, 2007, 02:58:57 PM »

Oh, years ago it used to be WAY easier. Since the airflow recoding (what was it, AH 2.6?) it's been nearly impossible for me. Which is why I exclaim "oh my god!" when I land safely at the end of the film (posted above)

DoNKeY · « **Reply #13 on:** July 31, 2007, 03:54:13 PM »

The reason why it's easier to fly planes missing wingtips when they're faster is because when their thrust:lift ratio is 1:1 or greater can't remember it becomes like a rocket, and no lift is needed to fly straight. So yeah the faster you go the easier it should be to fly without a wingtip which is why everybody knows that when you start to slow down you have trouble controlling the plane.

BaldEagl · « **Reply #14 on:** July 31, 2007, 05:23:51 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by BaldEagl
I don't think speed of the plane makes a difference at all. It just depends on the plane.

Let me rephrase this; I don't think faster planes vs. slower planes makes a difference at all.

I do know that any plane missing part of one or more wings is easier to fly fast than slow.