Flying the P-47

[SgtPappy]

Hey all. I've decided I want to train my energy fighting skills, so I've chosen everyone's favourite, the P-47!

Now I've always respected this plane, but I haven't the foggiest on how to fly it successfully. I know that it has a very loyal following and was wondering if anyone could give me a few pointers.

Thanks!

[Major Biggles]

the p47 is a terrible energy fighter.

i think you're really thinking of boom and zoom, which the jug excels at. energy fighting is actually dogfighting in one of it's purest forms, using immelmans and things to turn tight but maintain energy. energy fighiting is the perfected turnfight, it requires not only a stable turnrate but a great climbrate and good energy retention.

the p47 is a girl with a big fat arse. it's no energy fighter.

the trick to the jug is to get some alt and BnZ. it's got great guns, so you'll saw through peeps in a single pass. just set up nice dives on slow and vulnerable opponents, then slowly pull up and regain your alt over and over. a 47n is one of those planes that's easy to get 10+ kills in if you're careful about ack and hordes of cons, because it not only has the great guns of all the jugs, but a nice fuel load too.

just experiment and keep your E up. it climbs and accelerates pretty badly, so you gotta get your E through alt. also, watch out for it's high AoA stall, it tends to flip out to the left if you pull too hard

[bj229r]

jug climbs like crap, dives REAL good:aok  Rolls well at high speed too, and N is faster than spitard 16---notch or 2 of flaps and it does cool things....for a while

[RedTop]

Originally posted by SgtPappy
Hey all. I've decided I want to train my energy fighting skills, so I've chosen everyone's favourite, the P-47!

Now I've always respected this plane, but I haven't the foggiest on how to fly it successfully. I know that it has a very loyal following and was wondering if anyone could give me a few pointers.

Thanks!

<---

^ there ya go. Not a great pointer...but its sufficent.

Look up YUCCA....Blukitty....Husky01. ...Nomde....Frenchy...Hajo... .Any of the 56th group.....BatfinkV...Jensk

They can help you with tips galore.

[humble]

Technically you can "E-fight" any plane. As a couple of my squaddies (both very good jug drivers IMO) have pointed out its more of a B&Z bird then a true "E fighter".

There are three components to consider in viewing a planes E fighting capability.

a) acceleration
b) sustained climb
c) "Zoom"

The jug has poor acceleration and poor sustained climb compared to many other birds. So its deficient in 2 of the 3 area's vs a plane like the 109K4 (IMO the best pure E fighter in the game{non perked}).

E fighting is actually broken down into +E and -E fighting. Going back to the "how to get someone off your 6" thread what makes kitty and Greebo so tough is there skill at -E fighting {also where the jug shines IMO as a "transitional E fighter}. As kitty said the "secret" is in doing just enough to avoid and deny the shot while retaing all the E possbile to capitalize on any shot opportunity you force. The ideal "E fight" profile is the postive E attack with the ever tightening "circle of pressure" that forces the enemy to a wallowing state by applying constant increasing pressure. The better your understanding of "-E" fighting the better this "+E" attack will become IMO.

E fighting is more a state of mind then a state of plane. The Hog is probably a better overall E fighter then the Jug for most people.

Although it might suprise most people the A-20 is one of the better E fighters in the game and is actually a great training platform for learning both +e and-E fighting and especially the value and correct use of "zoom"....

[Major Biggles]

great post snap.


the jug doesn't gain E very well, so get it high far out from the fight, and try to keep that E through the fight. it dives and zooms incredibly well because it's the biggest single engine fighter here. if you've got the E to start with the jug is a tough one to beat.

if you're a half decent stick, try experimenting with furballing in it too the flaps come out at pretty high speeds so it has a great high speed turnrate, but once you lose your speed it can be tough to get it back. a 1 v 1 in a jug is usually a lot of fun, and the jug can stand a good chance against a lot of planes if flown well, but don't go diving into a huge red cloud, because it's likely to kill you

good luck, and like red said, look up some of those big names, try winging with them sometime

[SgtPappy]

Thanks all! seems very helpful. Humble, do you have any videos of this '- E' fighting? I' like to see. Thanks.

[bozon]

The Jug in AH conditions is a Judo fighter. The enemy will often be higher and faster than you (unless you want to spend 10 minutes climbing and run away after 2 passes), so be prepared to play lots of defense. What Humble refers to is the use of the enemy's E advantage against himself. This is perhaps the ONLY thing a jug does well down low. Luckily, a large percentage of the players have no clue and give you no respect - that is why you can kill them.

[SgtPappy]

ahh. i see. now i must simply figure out the best overshooting maneuvers that waste the smallest amount of E.

This -E fighting style.. is weight a factor in actually helping? It would explain why the heavy spit 8's on my team seem to maul lighter spit 9's and 16's.

[humble]

Originally posted by SgtPappy
ahh. i see. now i must simply figure out the best overshooting maneuvers that waste the smallest amount of E.

This -E fighting style.. is weight a factor in actually helping? It would explain why the heavy spit 8's on my team seem to maul lighter spit 9's and 16's.

Its not simply a question of "forcing" the overshoot. The aggressor controls the fight. He may or may not create an overshoot potential for you to exploit. Along time ago in a land far far away back when I was a trainer I'd take a plane and but the babyseal on my 6 and then let him stay there but counter his shots. Over time you gain a feel for being able to "exploit" the variables in flight envelope such that you can deny the attacking con the actual shot window. Now with the baby seal this was usually the function of his/her favorite plane being a spitty or such...and wondering why they cant hit a P-40 from 600-400 out....what your really teaching is throttle control, the use of lag, use of acceleration, transition from lag to lead and out of plane to in plane etc...all wrapped up in 20 min of "follow the leader"...

Two of the clips I posted in the other thread might help. This is an "E defense" vs a la-7...its not really an overshoot per se as much as keeping my flight envelope and his "seperate" as much as possible...lala clip

The 2nd is the 109 clip. This is a much more "classic" -E defense. No way an A-20 is going to hang with a 109K4 but by using correct E fighting tactics I can manufacture an opportunity over time. What makes E fighting so hard (for some) is that you often need to be out of plane. This places your lift vector where it needs to be. If you watch not just this film but almost all the great furball/duel/overshoot clips the critical move is reorientation of the lift vector (which is roughly the up view thru top of cockpit) from out of plane to infront of the con...anytime your inside guns range and get your lift vector pointed just ahead of your target you also get a sweet shot window.

So on defense your goal is manuever your plane away from the other guys lift vector. If you watch any of the A-20 clips I posted you'll see me "adjusting" and often totally avoiding or at least diminishing the other guys shot window...what I'm looking at is the combination of his wing line and angular rotation to guess where his lift vector is pointing and then moving from it...

On offense you need to keep your lift vector AWAY from the cons line of target till you want to shoot. Anytime your lift vector is in front of the target you've created an overshoot...ideally you want to be positive E but slightly out of plane and in lag. If you go to the 71st web site I think theres a clip there of a me fighting a nikki in a P40b...it shows the "lag to lead" gunnery very nicely...basically 3 shot windows and all 3 connect. literally less then 100 .50cal and 200 .30's to shred the nikki. The key to flying a good E fight (+ or -) is learning this "out of plane lag" orientation....

[BS8th_Jaw]

the p47 is a terrible energy fighter.

i think you're really thinking of boom and zoom, which the jug excels at. energy fighting is actually dogfighting in one of it's purest forms, using immelmans and things to turn tight but maintain energy. energy fighiting is the perfected turnfight, it requires not only a stable turnrate but a great climbrate and good energy retention.

the p47 is a girl with a big fat arse. it's no energy fighter.

the trick to the jug is to get some alt and BnZ. it's got great guns, so you'll saw through peeps in a single pass. just set up nice dives on slow and vulnerable opponents, then slowly pull up and regain your alt over and over. a 47n is one of those planes that's easy to get 10+ kills in if you're careful about ack and hordes of cons, because it not only has the great guns of all the jugs, but a nice fuel load too.

just experiment and keep your E up. it climbs and accelerates pretty badly, so you gotta get your E through alt. also, watch out for it's high AoA stall, it tends to flip out to the left if you pull too hard

Um... might I jump in here?

First off, the 47 is an excellent fighter in the right hands. Its awsome for BnZ tactics and you can gain energy back very very easily... that is when flown correctly. there is one thing the 47 isnt tho, its no turn fighter... you cannot turn and burn with this plane - although you can do slight turn fights, you just have to be careful.

Reason being the jug is a heavy a** fighter, it weighed over 2 tons in combat when not loaded with extra weight (bombs rockets). This weight advantage of course helped it dive alot faster, it could gain speed like a bat out of hell. it is a decent climber, the earlier versions were not however due to the bad prop the plane had.

However the late variant 47-D 40 (used mainly late war era) had a better prop on it, which allowed it to grab more air thus allowing a better climb-rate-this allowed the pilot to climb at a very high speed, even tho you lose airspeed quickly in a climb because the planes do damned heavy.

So, its not a easy fighter to fly, its really difficult to manage the airplane... one thing you definitely DO NOT want to do is get it low alt and speed... once that happens.. your pretty much screwed unless you have a wingman with you.

So its not a bad fighter, just a fighter requiring alot of skill to use.

[humble]

BS8th...

1st your thoughts are welcome and your not incorrect.

However...

If my memory is correct the gentleman you quoted is a multiple KOTH winner for the last year. I do know he's a very skilled stick....he is very much a guy with "the right hands".

Technically the Jug is one of the best angles fighters in the game...so in fact its a great "T&Ber". However this has to be done with either some alt to work with or astute gunnery. If the jug has a bit of room to reload its a very deadly plane to go E to angles and back with.

Basically what Biggles was saying is fly the plane to its strength. Which is technically B&Z to angles since its ability to bleed E quickly combined with great flaps gives it a tremendous ability to hit quickly...getting "bogged down" in an E fight goes against its strength...but you basically burn it and turn it and then reload and try again...its not a sustained turner...

[lengro]

Originally posted by humble

If my memory is correct the gentleman you quoted is a multiple KOTH winner for the last year. I do know he's a very skilled stick....he is very much a guy with "the right hands".

Exactly - our young Major Biggles is one of the best cartoon pilots in Aces High II.
Every plane is good in the "right hands" - but we can only compare them when pilot skills is considered equal.

[TequilaChaser]

Sgt Pappy,
any plane you desire to fly is and can be flown in the script of - energy Fighting/ Energy Flying Style

Energy Fighters are players who can in a smoothing flow switch back and forth between B n Z to angles to BnZ fighting both with a positive & a negative energy advantage.......

knowing all the attributes /capabilitys/incapabilitys of your plane you are currently using and also at the same time knowing the same for any opponent plane you come up against...allows you to determine what one must do in order to negate the advantage toward you and away from your opponent..

I would not say the P47 series is a terrible energy fighter or plane to pick to fly in the energy fighting style.........I would say, that it takes alot of practice and determination to become sufficient in the P47, if you intend to fly it in the style of "Energy Fighting".......are there better planes suited for this role? Yes, can the P47 series do this role? YES.....it just takes more practice to learn what & what not you can get away with.......

Maj.Biggles ( this is pooface correct? trying to remember ). is one of those who had the determination to not give up and had the want to excel as far as his abiltys will let him, and he keeps on pushing forward to learn more everyday......he is a good opponent and he most always offers you one of the better fights....he is very proficient in KOTH tourneys as well, but I find that in this instance the KOTH tourneys hold no true bearing, because they are all about equal planes equal odds, all based on pilot's ability and not on the planes attributes good or bad........

one must 1st learn the differences of the 3 different types of dogfighting/flying styles.then one must be able to determine what  way their opponent is flying.then that is when you fall back on your knoweledge and use what you know to make the oppoent fly toward his own weaknesses both flying style and aircraft inabilitys......and make your oppoenet fly toward your own aircrafts best attributes and toward your best abilitys.......

E fighting is the best of both BnZ and Angles/Stall fighting mixed together to come out  as a sweet tasting desert that makes you beg for more once you take the 1st bite.......and find the pure enjoyment in it all........

if you want to E-Fight in the P47, then God Speed........do it, and don't give up til you accomplish your desired goal.......

[bj229r]

Originally posted by RedTop
<---

^ there ya go. Not a great pointer...but its sufficent.

Look up YUCCA....Blukitty....Husky01. ...Nomde....Frenchy...Hajo... .Any of the 56th group.....BatfinkV...Jensk

They can help you with tips galore.

If memory serves, the best jug performance I ever saw was Redtop in a D25 or somethin....he was on the deck in a 1 on 5 or so,  kilt a few of us, kept us ALL at bay or  LONG damn time--until then, I had no idea the jug could be an every-day fighter in MA (After all the time Ive been flyin em, I still have to rely on the N and its escape velocity, cant come near to doin some of the stuff I saw Redtop and some of the 56th guys do:aok )