Bonds.

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by bj229r
I've always wondered that, CAN steroids help pitchers? Not sure if being able to bench 350 can help your 90+ mph curve break any meaner? Some of the best fast-ballers all tall skinny guys--David Wells sure didnt think 'roids help pitchers

Well, they say most of your power comes from the legs.

[Sixpence]

Oh, and about Bonds, he deserves the record. Tom House said they were injecting stuff they wouldn't give horses back in the early 70's(ironic that he caught Hank Aaron's 715th home run), so who knows who was taking them.

They juiced the ball, they pulled in the fences, and they perfected steroids. Baseball was more than happy to see it, it was bringing baseball back to the prominence. The sports writers new, you think they said anything? Hell no, it was giving them alot to write about(especially the the die hard baseball writers).

Everyone was doing them is not an excuse, it's just the way it was. You think Lenny Dykstra would have been as good without them? I don't see an asterisk next to the Mets world series win.

Bond is an easy target because he is not liked by many in baseball, even his teamates(demanded his own locker, big screen TV, etc) and he toppled a very sacred record. But hating him is not a reason to put an asterisk next to his record. If you are going to do that you might as well put an asterisk next to baseball itself.

What bothers me the most is that he never came clean, but that's his arrogant selfish nature.

[C(Sea)Bass]

In my mind no one is better than Ruth. Think of how many more he would have hit had he not been a pitcher at the start of his career. Also, Aaron and Bonds have the advantage of living at a time where more was known about fitness. Today theres all these things (legal and not) that can be taken to help playes perform and heal. Ruth's idea of a health snack was whiskey and a hot dog.

As far as pitchers taking steroids, they are under less pressure to do so because, as many of them know, it wont do much for velocity and on top of that, pitching at 105mph doesnt mean anything if you cant keep a guy off balance. MLB hitters could hit a ball goin 200mph if they knew it was coming. And people were right to think that power comes from the legs when pitching. If you watch a film of say Nolan Ryan you can see him push off the front of the rubber to get more power. then watch a slower pitcher, i.e. Tim Wakefield, and you will notice that he does not do this. Strong arms have little to do with it. In H.S. I had a weak arm, couldnt bench the bar:D, but i could hit the upper 80's without much effort(my best was 88mph on the gun and that was a cutter).I could however leg press 1700lbs and was an offensive lineman for the football team. Leg strength is the key along with proper weight transfer. Roids could help by helping the muscle repair after an outing allowing the player to pitch again sooner.

and a few side notes:
-Clemens isn't juiced hes just a fat old man.
-I've never seen a 90mph curveball (as was mentioned earlier)
-Parks today are smaller.
-Seasons are longer.
-More teams = less talented players   meaning better players have inflated stats
-Yaz was a butt hole
-Babe Ruth was a Pitcher early in his career( a good one too)
-what does this mean ?

Bottom Line: Bonds sucks

[SaburoS]

Originally posted by C(Sea)Bass
In my mind no one is better than Ruth. Think of how many more he would have hit had he not been a pitcher at the start of his career. Also, Aaron and Bonds have the advantage of living at a time where more was known about fitness. Today theres all these things (legal and not) that can be taken to help playes perform and heal. Ruth's idea of a health snack was whiskey and a hot dog.

As far as pitchers taking steroids, they are under less pressure to do so because, as many of them know, it wont do much for velocity and on top of that, pitching at 105mph doesnt mean anything if you cant keep a guy off balance. MLB hitters could hit a ball goin 200mph if they knew it was coming. And people were right to think that power comes from the legs when pitching. If you watch a film of say Nolan Ryan you can see him push off the front of the rubber to get more power. then watch a slower pitcher, i.e. Tim Wakefield, and you will notice that he does not do this. Strong arms have little to do with it. In H.S. I had a weak arm, couldnt bench the bar:D, but i could hit the upper 80's without much effort(my best was 88mph on the gun and that was a cutter).I could however leg press 1700lbs and was an offensive lineman for the football team. Leg strength is the key along with proper weight transfer. Roids could help by helping the muscle repair after an outing allowing the player to pitch again sooner.

and a few side notes:
-Clemens isn't juiced hes just a fat old man.
-I've never seen a 90mph curveball (as was mentioned earlier)
-Parks today are smaller.
-Seasons are longer.
-More teams = less talented players   meaning better players have inflated stats
-Yaz was a butt hole
-Babe Ruth was a Pitcher early in his career( a good one too)
-what does this mean ?

Bottom Line: Bonds sucks

It all evens out. What if this, what if that. What if the pitchers in Ruth's era also studied their craft and physical fitness?
 
Steroids help a pitcher recover between outings.

[bj229r]

What SHOULD happen to a player in his laste 30's is he can't get around on a high inside fastball anymore--Ripken's fate. When I was a kid--60's/70's, 37..38, you were done (Unless you were a non-fastball pitcher, Ryan aside) NOW, these guy's careers are TAKING off in their late 30's...when their body's peak was in their 20's. Has anyone ever heard of an exercise regimen that Bonds has been undergoing similar to Nolan Ryan? I know his trainer got busted....





this is 1991:


1996:


2003:

[john9001]

should classify players like race cars, stock, semi stock, and modified,

hahaha.

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by SaburoS
It all evens out. What if this, what if that. What if the pitchers in Ruth's era also studied their craft and physical fitness?

Good point, as time has gone by new pitches have been developed. What if Baba Ruth had to deal with a forkball? Alot of pitchers have reinvented themselves after developing the forkball, Clemens and Schilling come to mind. Alot of science has gone into developing new pitches, Greg Maddox had an arsenal of pitches that could move just about any direction.
 
Steroids help a pitcher recover between outings.

And as I mentioned before, it can strenghten your legs, where most of your power comes from. If you are a pitcher and you are working the muscles in your upper body, you are probably wasting your time. If you work the muscles that drive off the rubber, then it would stand to reason you would generate more power to your pitches.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by bj229r
W
this is 1991:


1996:


2003:

Notice the "elbow armor" Bonds began wearing in the early 90's?

Read this, and tell me if you don't agree that this type of hardware should be banned...

My regards,

Widewing

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by bj229r
When I was a kid--60's/70's, 37..38, you were done (Unless you were a non-fastball pitcher, Ryan aside)

Or Yastremski... 44

Or Reggie Jackson... 41

Or George Brett .. 40

Or Gaylord Perry ... 44

Or Pete Rose ... 45

[bj229r]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Or Yastremski... 44

Or Reggie Jackson... 41

Or George Brett .. 40

Or Gaylord Perry ... 44

Or Pete Rose ... 45

And every one of them was hitting like in low 200's at the end, and Perry was a pitcher. Brett was RUINing his lifetime batting average the last couple years. Final year was like .266, for a lifetime 300+ hitter...point is, was ANY of these guys at the top of the league in ANY stat at these ages?

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Fulmar,



Drediock (sic), Gooden and Strawberry never took performance enhancing drugs, and they paid a heavy price for it. Ask LT if cocaine is a performance enhancing drug

But again I mention that this discussion doesnt have anything to do with recreational  drugs or booze.

But rather the use of performance enhancing drugs

Ruth, and arguabley Strawberry, Gooden and LT did what they did in spite of the use of things that might have hampered their performance.
They werent using these things to help them play better.

Steroids users, use them to actualy perform better.

Therin lies the difference

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by bj229r
And every one of them was hitting like in low 200's at the end, ...

Brett hit 266 (High 200's) in his last year, Reggie was a career 262 hitter, so a last year of  220 was not that much of a down year for him.

Plenty of 24 yr olds hit in the low 200's in the last year of their career.  That's why it is the end of their career.

Age is not the issue, generally, but seeing a vast improvement in one's abilities ala Bonds in his late thirties certainly is an anomaly worthy of heavy suspicion.

[Saxman]

I think all armor except the batting helmet should be banned for batters. If you have no fear of getting hit, there's nothing to keep you off the plate.

Ah well, this week HAS brought SOMETHING that everyone can agree on as a feel-good story for the game, and something POSITIVE to take the spotlight off of Bonds:

Rick Ankiel, who began his career as one of the best prospective lefties in all of baseball (mid-90s fastball with killer movement and one of the most devastating curveballs in the game) before control over his pitches inexplicably collapsed entirely in the 2000 playoffs, made his return last night in St. Louis as the starting Right Fielder, and provided the Cards' bullpen with a much needed cushion when he hit a three-run dinger in the 7th to push the score to 5-0. It's the end of a 6-year struggle to find his way back to the majors after battling control problems, injury and his own confidence (I was there last night, and almost got teary-eyed during the standing ovation at his first at-bat, and the curtain call after he lost the ball in right field).

On behalf of baseball fans everywhere, and all Cardinals fans in particular, welcome back, Rick.

[tatertot]

ive got 14 of those rookie cards any buyers lol have a complete set lotta steriods came out of that group of rookies.



Steriods been around for yrs in baseball all of the sudden someone who uses them well accussed then everyone is all up in arms..



red tail you exactly right why no one thinks a over 40 yr old pitcher who was washed up in boston all of the sudden becomes 20 again bothers the  heck out of me.

thing is why bash them know when even our pres over looked steriods when he owned the rangers....

[Hap]

Originally posted by tatertot
why bash them know when even our pres overlooked steriods when he owned the rangers....