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Author Topic: Alternative Energies, - and Recycling  (Read 1385 times)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2007, 05:11:41 AM »
FPBone:  Pimental OMITTED the entire restpoduct.
Or as Wiki puts it:
"Pimentel's argument, for example, is based on long-outdated technology, understates the energy costs of refining and transporting petroleum fuels, and neglects to account for the energy value of the byproducts of the ethanol production process, including that of the high protein cattle feed"

 And that is both minerals and protein, which is of high value.
The restproduct from extracting ethanol  from various herbs can be used STRAIGHT for high quality animal feed.
The rests from barley, for instance, and the straw can be burned STRAIGHT for heating. Or used in compost.
An error like that is way to big to omit. The guy is not worth his salt, and in this case I speak from agricultural experience and education, - don't need Wiki to explain it to me. I have these figures in my hands every day.
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2007, 05:13:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bustr
This is interesting out of Germany.

http://biopact.com/2007/05/green-designer-coal-more-on.html

They are creating man made coal and or petroleum.


Man, that's something :aok
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Charon

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« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2007, 08:30:15 AM »
Quote
FPBone: Pimental OMITTED the entire restpoduct.
Or as Wiki puts it:
"Pimentel's argument, for example, is based on long-outdated technology, understates the energy costs of refining and transporting petroleum fuels, and neglects to account for the energy value of the byproducts of the ethanol production process, including that of the high protein cattle feed"


In a best case scenario -- assuming critics are correct -- you are only talking about an energy balance shifting from the negative 0.75 unit of energy produced per unit used in production to about 1.3 per units of "positive" energy produced. Petroleum generates about 5 units of energy for each unit used in production. Biodiesel is actually about the same, though they have a "spin" equation that knocks the petroleum number down based on crude not being renewable. True, but only important really when you start running out of petroleum. And even then, you have the limitations of conventional agriculture that cannot offer anything even remotely close to a 1 to 1 replacement option. And currently, neither biofuel can exist in the free market without government support. Feedstock and transportation issues add too much cost, though that could ease with more volume and infrastructure -- to a point.

The fact remains, that the biggest front line supporters of biofuels acknowledge that without major breakthroughs in cellulosic biomass ethanol or algae for biodiesel, were limited to a single digit replacement of liquid fuel demand. Should those breakthrough occur, it would likely take at least a decade to start seeing real production ramping up.

Charon
« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 08:33:39 AM by Charon »
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2007, 08:49:06 AM »
well... there is a way we can increase our crop yields..  we can add co2.   with luck... the current warming trend will continue also and we will have longer growing seasons... I don't hold out much hope for that tho since solar activity is down and we should see a global cooling soon.

Fact is.. once you burn through all the doom and gloom and alarmist scenarios..  there is lots of good news out there for humans...  electricity will become cheap to almost free for most of us... in a few years.. a couple of solar panels will give us an "all you can eat" electric bill that will be about 10% of what it is now.   Just like internet service.

oil shale.. nukes.. improved home solar and wind and synthetic coal from garbage...  ethanol for higher octane for our hot rods... free electric cars to get to walmart in...  hydrogen..  

It's not the end of the world by any means.  

lazs
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2007, 08:51:23 AM »
Boils down to the price, and the price boils down to---taxes.
Where I live, the gas (petroleum) is almost 2$ per LITER.
Unfortunately I can't grow rape for the seed (too cold), and I don't have a distillery of proper size, but if I did it would pay off.
Out of one ha. of barley I would get some...errrr....(1650*3000)/4100 litres, - that makes 1.207. Litres of fuel (old brewer's rule is one litre per kg of sugar, just remembered that, - the litre being 80%, and 1650 is the kcal pr kg barley vs the 4100 (or was it 4300) kcal pr kg of sugar)
Had I the distillery, I could run the whole farm, all private use, all energy input costs etc on some 10-20 ha. I still have the excess food from the barley, and ca. 10 pr ha bales of straw.
And the crops here are a joke compared to EU or the US, and it's being claimed theirs is a joke compared to S-America.
BTW, the farm is then used up to 5%. Some years back, the EU was paying substities to up to 10% of farmland for NOT being used. Mad isn't it!
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2007, 08:57:49 AM »
so angus... you are saying that.. as a farmer..  with the land.. you can't make it work for you econmicaly even tho you are being taxed into the dirt by your government on your current fuel source?

And yet..... you suggest that we somehow provide you with ethanol for cheap?

lazs
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2007, 10:47:18 AM »
I could actually make it work, if I afforded the investment, and fighting interest rates is also a concern.
We are actually taxed into the dirt through fuel, becase it's a "directed" tax.
It goes for building roads. Few soals+long distances=a lot of road per soal.
However the prices are high as well in Europe. Not much lower, if at all.
The USA is the western world country with a different policy, and if you compare the prices, it normally was a gallon in the USA=1 litre in EU...roughly.
There is different taxing on agricultural fuel, so it's blue, and cheaper. That would make the competition tougher, and as well, - those diesels don't run on ethanol.
I grow green with envy on the climate just in sweden/denmark, for they strive for the magic goal of 3000 kg's of rapeseed per ha,- plus a lot of sideproduct /biomass). Here the season is too short for that.
From that you just need a basically simple mechanism to squash the oil out. The restproduct is animal feed. Or rather the main product. I need more numbers there (litres pr ha), but you can use the crude product straight on a diesel engine. Better if you mix it a bit, especially in cold times though. I'll look.
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2007, 10:59:09 AM »
Ahh, found one link. But not enough:
http://www.cyberlipid.org/glycer/biodiesel.htm
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2007, 04:48:57 AM »
Out of memory, and I belive I have mentioned it before, that rapeseed oil can be used directly, and the magical crops number was 3 tonnes pr. ha of seed. My memory said that something like a ton of oil would come out of there. That leaves you with 2 tonnes of high quality food, and a whole heap of biomass as well, since rape grows several feet high.
Well, finally found it:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#ascend
Almost 1.200 litres pr. ha. not bad, for the quality is very close to diesel.
Farmers in Sweden are beginning using this straight.
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2007, 05:01:33 AM »
Very interesting website. I have to repeat my question for Lazs, what would happen to the oil companies if growing energy would cut a 5% slab of their cake every year for 10 years.....
:noid
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2007, 05:59:31 AM »
Any fuel that needs farmland will never take over as it does not make any sense except for those that wants to feel better about what they put in their tank
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Offline moot

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« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2007, 06:38:13 AM »
There's a new Hydrogen mfg. method just found in Japan, based on wood cellulose.  I don't have the link atm, but could dig it up if anyone is curious about the details.  The H output is pretty clean.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2007, 06:42:36 AM by moot »
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2007, 07:30:44 AM »
We grow lots of uneccecary stuff on farmland. Tobacco :D
And feeding humans needs less farmland if we eat less...meat.
We destroy a lot of farmland in the wild race of making things cheaper than they really are, - coffe and beef for instance.
We do not use all farmland. The EU has been paying substities for farmland not being used because of overproduction of food in that area.
We have arable land that we are not even looking at because of short term costs.
We also have lots of land that is not being used particularly because of location, politics etc.
Us earthlings, yes
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2007, 09:06:00 AM »
angus...I am not sure what your question is about.   You asked what would happen to oil companies if they lost half their market share in 10 years.  

How can I answer that question?  why would they lose half their share?   plastic and all sorts of things need oil and will for quite some time but... say they did..

If they were smart they would simply take their money and put it into something else.  

I don't really care.   I don't care what happens to the oil companies other than if they are really stupid and cause problems in the stock market and the economy.  I can't imagine that they wouldn't just invest in something else.

lazs
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2007, 09:12:53 AM »
Half their market shares in all fuel powering agriculture, cities powerplants, and industires alike, as well as the local gas-station.
Not plastics.
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It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)
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