Author Topic: Alternative Energies, - and Recycling  (Read 1307 times)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2007, 09:41:37 AM »
Still not sure I understand the question...  Are you saying that they wouldn't be able to find something else to do with that  money that would return em 9%?

lazs

Offline Angus

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« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2007, 05:35:15 AM »
Their cake starts at 100%. So, imagine next year 5%off, that leaves 95%, etc for 10 years.  how do youo think their economy would be?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #47 on: August 13, 2007, 06:01:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
So, imagine next  


Angus is shooting for scientist status. :)
So was Lennon

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline Charon

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« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2007, 08:31:01 AM »
The oil companies only stand to lose about 2-5 percent  of the petroleum volume by 2030-2050 to biofuels according to estimates from both the biofuels industry and the oil industry. Should cellulosic ethanol or algae biodiesel come through, they will no doubt be major players in that technology, especially given their current development efforts in those areas.

Charon

Offline LePaul

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« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2007, 08:34:43 AM »
You see if we do build cars that rely on a farm-produced item like corn, then the pollution we produce will cause more global warming...which will ruin crops and reduce our fuel output.  ;)

To quote Jurassic Park:  God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man. Man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs... Dinosaurs eat man. Woman inherits the earth...

:D

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2007, 08:37:26 AM »
angus.. I am sure the oil companies can find new and profitable things to invest in 100 years from now.  

I don't think they are too worried about any alternative fuel.

do you think they quashed a 200 mpg fuel system for cars too?

lazs

Offline deSelys

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« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2007, 08:38:29 AM »
Electrical powered cars are much more efficient and reliable than H powered ones. With the Li-Po batteries, a 50 kg battery holds around the same energy than 50 kg of diesel fuel. A range of  ~100 miles is more than 80% of the trips we make. The downside of course is the time needed to perform a full recharge. However, the electricity distribution system already exists and recharge stations could quickly be installed in a lot of place: at home (obviously) but also where you're working and in parkings. The investments to adapt infrastructure are limited.

For longer trips, the japanese are working on a 2nd gen hybrid: big battery and electrical engine, small but efficient diesel engine that reloads the battery when needed (like a diesel-electric submarine). The goal is to use almost exclusively the electrical propulsion and to recharge the battery on charging station.
The diesel engine could run on biofuel of course.

As a bonus, electrical engines have a high torque and are very reliable and need very few maintenance

Fuel-cell (powered) cars are less interesting: less efficient (especially when outside temp is low), much less reliable, they need a lot of maintenance and, most of all, they need H stations ALL OVER the country to be usable everywhere. The insvestments are huge but of course the oil industry is lobbying to adopt this solution as they could fit in the niche (with the electrical power, they are completely left out).

Finally, fusion power could be the next step after nuclear fission: the technology is already mature enough to produce energy when using He3 as fuel. the problem is that there is almost no He3 on earth. He3 is expelled by the sun but is blocked by the Earth atmosphere or magnetosphere (I don't recall which one). However, the lunar missions have showed that the rocks brought back from the surface of the Moon are relatively rich with He3.
This is so promising that apparently Nasa but also the russian and chinese agencies are boosting their programs to send the man back on the Moon.
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Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2007, 08:49:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by deSelys
With the Li-Po batteries, a 50 kg battery holds around the same energy than 50 kg of diesel fuel.
I call shenanigans.  Can you provide a citation?
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2007, 08:53:17 AM »
none of that can be true because the government did not make it happen.

lazs

Offline moot

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« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2007, 09:46:03 AM »
Semi-OT:
Space oil, more than the Earth can consume, in an asteroid belt near you... If nothing else, it soothes the dread of running out of fuel for our gasoline hotrods :)
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Offline deSelys

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« Reply #55 on: August 13, 2007, 10:08:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
I call shenanigans.  Can you provide a citation?


Oopsie... you're right. I remember having read that in a RC helicopter manual and I swallowed it hook, line and sinker without checking.

Li-Po battery has an energy/weight of 300 Wh/kg (source)

Gasoline has an energy/weight of... 13,200 Wh/kg (source)

To be honest, it must be pointed out that an electrical engine is much more efficient than a combustion engine (wasting a lot of E as heat), and usually lighter. Regenerative braking is another plus for the electrical vehicle.

An interesting read
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #56 on: August 13, 2007, 12:16:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
angus.. I am sure the oil companies can find new and profitable things to invest in 100 years from now.  

I don't think they are too worried about any alternative fuel.

do you think they quashed a 200 mpg fuel system for cars too?

lazs



Was that the answer?

If I was them, and thinking in short term, I would say that an alternitive farm-grown fuel, expanding, getting reputation, eating up markets like firstly domestic markets (farmers growing for themselves), then expanding into things like powerplants, heavy transport, and finally entering the dome of the home-car owner.....would be a thing to worry about. I think seriously. In short terms meaning, which is the way that drives short term profit. It's like thinking that maybe your children will live, - who cares about great-grand children?
I think that the Europeans are way ahead there, since they tax fossil fuels. Swap the numbers a bit, and suddenly bio-fuel is quite cheap.
I think that particially the oil companies global-warming propoganda comes from this "threat"
I think that there is an absolute possibility for stable energy, i.e. us humans using energy without having to add anything to to the atmosphere.
I think that the possibility of massive and increasing bio fuel production is real.
What would that do to some of the biggest dealers today?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #57 on: August 14, 2007, 10:29:23 AM »
angus... so your solution is to tax cheap fuel so much (and give the money to government) that it suddenly becomes attractive to use a fuel that is not as efficient or cheap?

Your solution is to put a burden of thousands of dollars a year on each and every one of us to solve a problem that will eventually solve itself anyway?

How long has this advanced civilization "yur-0-up" been taxing its citizens into oblivion on cheap oil and what has it gotten them in return?

seems that they have been taxing oil to the point it is almost prohibitive to use for many many decades... generations have paid their artificial price...

And what has it got em?   a bigger gas bill for everyone.. people forced to drive cars that are not what they want in order to simply keep their head above water....

Now you say that we should join em?  for how many decades/generations?

I say that we are doing the right thing... as oil gets more expensive.. alternatives will become more attractive.    shale/coal/biofuels...

Why paint such a gloomy and desperate picture?   are you just an pessimistic person?

lazs

Offline Angus

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« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2007, 10:45:46 AM »
Lazs: I carry the burden of Diesel above 1$ pr LITER as well as gas for some...1.8? (being domestic and driving tractors mostly I usually just ride the bicycle for keeping fit while shopping). Anyway, the "BuURDEN" does not bend me, nor should it bend anybody....but a sissy :D
Efficient or cheap, - that is a matter of time. WE KNOW that we will run out of fossil fuel anyway. Tic-Tac, the clock is going. There are two parameters though.
1. When we run out of fossil fuels, so that anything bio is suddenly cheaper.
2. When the crap has hit the fan, and Global warming has an acceleration on it's own that makes co2's output look like a joke.

Either way, in a short term profit cruise, all agricultural grown fuel is bad news for the same hand that pays "Göbbels" to try to maintain the same business...for a while.

So, - which camp are you?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2007, 10:53:11 AM »
The most recent examples of large scale industrialized central planning are less than inspiring, Angus.  The Soviet Union was based on the model you propose, where the government's power is used as a club to beat people into doing something ideological.  The 5 year plans of China are the same way.

Taxing fuels to force industry to change makes a big undampened feedback loop, and the natural state of a feedback loop is a device that shakes itself apart.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis