Author Topic: quick question for you ace pilots (Read 1015 times)

Latrobe · « **on:** August 10, 2007, 12:40:13 PM »

from what I've read from all these thread about how to get sommeone off your six, all the best pilots don't attempt to avoid the enemy on their six, but try to kill them. This confuses me and I would like to know what they are talking about. How do you attempt to kill someone when they are on your six?

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #1 on:** August 10, 2007, 01:07:50 PM »

Latrobe,
1st most of the players who think with this type of mentality are going in with the mindset " I am going to win, I will not lose"..and they are thinking that way all the way until they are either flying thru the debris of what is left of the opponents plane or they are sitting in the tower.....

they never give up thinking this regardless if they are even in a fight where smeone is glued to their "SIX" and repeatedly pinging them, they still think they can win and WILL!

ok, with that out of the way, think of it as fishing......what do you do to entice a fish? you Bait, and what do you do to catch the fish once he takes the bait? you set the hook.....then you have the fight......

so when they see someone on their "SIX" they say UMMMM "dinner time" and go to baiting and setting the hook.......then they have the mindset as I described in my opening response of they will not and can not lose.......

DamnedRen · « **Reply #2 on:** August 10, 2007, 01:09:46 PM »

90% of the time anytime someone gets on your 6 you just use that as an advantage to set them up for a kill. There are many different ways to accomplish it but the one thing you must keep in mind is you go aggressive iso defensive. If you look at Boelkes Dicta, "If your opponent dives on you, do not try to evade his onslaught, but fly to meet it." While a true statement the distance he is behind you dictates just how you will accomplish it. If the guy is 400 out you may have to sucker him into an overshoot. "IF" you have rudders that's easily accomplished. If he is 600 out you probably can do as Boelke states and turn into him aggressively. Am i making any sense? The easiest way to explain it is in the TA.

I'm out of pocket until the 14th but would be happy to show you then. Hope this helps.

Krusty · « **Reply #3 on:** August 10, 2007, 01:10:18 PM »

It's mental. You think "Oh crap I'm gonna die!!!!" and you'll probably make a self-fulfilling prophecy. You think "Okay, now how do I kill this SOB?" and chances are you've got an aggressive edge and have a better shot at coming out the winner.

Latrobe · « **Reply #4 on:** August 10, 2007, 01:14:25 PM »

from what I've heard (from friend and family) I'm mental alright

so basicly its all about being agressive and wanting to win and getting into a mental state were you will win. I see TY very much

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #5 on:** August 10, 2007, 01:25:02 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Latrobe
from what I've heard (from friend and family) I'm mental alright

so basicly its all about being agressive and wanting to win and getting into a mental state were you will win. I see TY very much

pretty much, yes

another thing is...when they see that guy behind them or diving in on them, the players with the above mentioned "mindset" have more than likely already thought "ahead" in their mind of how the scenario is going to playout and have already predetermined what counter move they might have to preform to the counter that the guy on their "SIX"" will do / perform.......

so in return they actually become the leader and make the Attacker, as Ren mentioned, become defensive and the Attacker has to instead of setting the fight tone, react to the other player...

Traveler · « **Reply #6 on:** August 10, 2007, 01:33:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Latrobe
from what I've heard (from friend and family) I'm mental alright

so basicly its all about being agressive and wanting to win and getting into a mental state were you will win. I see TY very much

Not exactly, but being agressive helps and using your plane in the right way. Energy dictates most of the out come of an attack to your six. Forcing the "overshoot" of a high energy aircraft on your six can be quickly learned and takeing advantage of that overshoot will get you wins.

Two equal engery aircraft engaged in a merrygoround with all things being equal, it all comes down to who makes the biggest mistake.

Latrobe · « **Reply #7 on:** August 10, 2007, 01:37:56 PM »

so to be aggressive you have to have no fear of dieing (which is no problem in AH2) and never think about loosing, always win. If you're missing half a wing, kill. loose all your wing bail and shoot them with your pistol

. TY very much for the help, my dream is to in the top 10 ranks one day and with all the advice im getting it may come true!

mtnman · « **Reply #8 on:** August 10, 2007, 01:38:39 PM »

It is a mindset thing for sure.

There is a certain amount of "predictability" that plays in too.

When it comes to a guy in front of me, he can do a wide range of things to try to evade, cause an overshoot, etc. He might be new and inexperienced- or he might be an AH mastermind. I don't know. That guy isn't all that predictable.

The guy on my six is different. I know what he wants to do, what he's flying, where he's going, and how he plans to get there. I know his relative speed (faster than me, or he isn't a threat). I know his basic capabilities based on plane, speed, alt, and number of enemies nearby.

I know what he'll do if I turn left, right, climb, or dive. Knowing that, I just set up my flight path accordingly, and try to time it so my bullets cross his flight path at the same time as his plane. Lots of different ways to do that, so I won't go into all that.

If he's aggressive, he's more predictable. If he's less aggressive, he's less predictable, but also less dangerous (at least immediately). The less aggressive pilot will probably zoom upward, or at least not follow me through my trap. That's ok, because it gives me time to ponder plan B, which may simply be to merge on more "even" terms.

Or I may spray from him at 2K-2.5K (I leave tracers on), and wiggle my wings a little. That's the ultimate bait. Look like a total newbie on the verge of losing control. Funny how aggressive that can make some people. :^)

MtnMan

humble · « **Reply #9 on:** August 10, 2007, 01:41:43 PM »

It's aggressive execution of a course of action intended to sieze the initiative. A good stick has a plan and believes in that plan right till it works, he dies or he decises it wont work. At which point he scraps plan A and goes to plan B and focuses on it with the same intensity...until it doesnt work...this continues till he wins or dies... at which point he either identifies where he messed up and failed to execute or the plan failed. Once you decide if you failed the plan or the plan failed you then you revisit one or both.

This has nothing to do with reverses but might help. I'm going to end up flying jugs in the upcoming scenario to fly with my squaddies. I suck in jugs so I'm now a D-25 driver. This is my 1st true "dog fight"...it's pretty obvious that I failed the plan and the plan failed me. I spun the plane and that led to my getting killed, but just before that the plane kind of hung as I tried to force it to the right coming over the top. At that point I stopped flying on feel and started thinking about flying....

I'm still in the what does the plane do part of the curve. I need to improve my fundemental flying (anytime you lose the plane you lost the fight IF the other guy is a stick like dadrabit. At the same time I felt like I could have won the fight...which is great for me at this time... So I'm 70% working on me and 30% working on a better more "efficient" line thru that type of fight. A different type of path might have allowed me to use my roll/rudder to "knuckle over" on him...instead I flew an arc...

I know the key to the jug there is the "semi spin" flop over as he comes up...I just dont know if the plane couldnt have done it...but I know that I didnt execute. So for now I'll look to repeat that knowing that even 400-500 alt speration gives me the "knuckle". Once I execute the knuckle and fail then i'll look to improving the "setup"...if that doesnt work i'll go to a different thought. Once I execute the knuckle and fail I'll be able to begin to put a "plan B" together (guessing a rolling scissors of some flavor)...

Pilot error

mtnman · « **Reply #10 on:** August 10, 2007, 01:42:04 PM »

Of course, there is a downside.

Being over-confident will get you kilt!!

MtnMan

TequilaChaser · « **Reply #11 on:** August 10, 2007, 02:03:02 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Latrobe
so to be aggressive you have to have no fear of dieing (which is no problem in AH2) and never think about loosing, always win. If you're missing half a wing, kill. loose all your wing bail and shoot them with your pistol . TY very much for the help, my dream is to in the top 10 ranks one day and with all the advice im getting it may come true!

you know, Latrobe, me and Schatzi was winging together and flying with this type of mindset
( and seriously, I think like this, even posted it years ago, never let the thought of "oh crap' I am about to lose this fight" sink into your thought process, once it finds it's way there then you are fighting two battles of thought s at the same time of trying to fight your actual opponent)

we came up against I believe it was Boozer & grmrpr or might have been another 4thFG player....anyhow in our 2 vs 2, I lost 1/2 of my P51 right wing ( or might of been an F4U ) and we were still mixing it up.I never gave up fighting.....Schatzi gets tagged because I was unable to maneuver effciently to the left to cover/clear her.but I managed after losing that 1/2 wing to get one of the P51's we were fighting and then had a good drawn out fight with Boozer, btw who also taught me believe it or not BFM/ACM like 12 or so years ago......, I was doing ok in our fight until Boozer realized I was missing a major component then he used it against me, and I ended up having to fight him going left to where I was holding my own ok, not great but ok, while fighting going right using low yoyo's and rolls etc...

so there is an example of the mentality to never give up.and there are a good few post on these boards of people who fought off 2 or 3 missing rudders/ 1/2 wings, 1/2 elevator/ 1 flap stuck down and the other shot off etc....

just the other night in the AvsA I got in a fight with either dedalos or Batfink and they shot my motor out, I never gave up fighting until there was no more altitude or speed left.I got a ditch out of it.

alot of great responses in this thread....hope you found your answer, Sir

& Good Luck ~S~

edit: and btw, yes I do often hit the silk and try to shoot the other planes with my 45, one of these days I will get a canopy shot with my 45 slug

Latrobe · « **Reply #12 on:** August 10, 2007, 02:10:20 PM »

I remeber winning a 4 on 1 (me being the one) p51 and p47 were BnZ and niki and f4u were turn fightin with my spit 16. I didn't know about the different tactics of dogfighting at the time, but I just kept the niki and f4u out of line of fire until jug and pony zoomed past me and climbed back out. I then just took out which ever one I thought was most deadly first. I killed the niki and F4U by taking them on 1 at a time and I made the jug auger. Pony overshot and I got a lucky shot on him and got his tail. Landed all 4 kills too. It was my favorite sortie ever.

Sundiver · « **Reply #13 on:** August 10, 2007, 02:16:05 PM »

The mindset is incredibly important I think also there are a few other things to consider. NUmber one for me, practically speaking is if you do get bounced by someone who has superior E or perhaps they have a faster AC. You have to realize at the outset that one of you is going to go down, if your opponent has superior E and you're not able to convert it you are not going to escape so you have to destroy your opposition. It's also like the others have said, it's a setting the other guy up for a sucker move. If they coming in /knowing/ they have the edge it can lead to over-confidence and you can use that against them.

The other thing I've noticed over the years is that if you're in a dogfight lasting say more than two minutes you'll have had ample time to observe the other pilot. Many many people in this game will repeat the same move. Bad, predictable habits that many people never realize they have. Watch your opponent closely. Does he always break right when pressed? Does he always do a split-s when presented with the chance? Now yes, they could be setting you up with it, but most don't realize they're even doing it.

dedalos · « **Reply #14 on:** August 10, 2007, 03:47:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Latrobe
so to be aggressive you have to have no fear of dieing (which is no problem in AH2) and never think about loosing, always win. If you're missing half a wing, kill. loose all your wing bail and shoot them with your pistol . TY very much for the help, my dream is to in the top 10 ranks one day and with all the advice im getting it may come true!

You will never be in the top 10 by being agrgresive. As for what to do with a guy on your six, start with what TC and Ren said. Don't think how too get away but how to kill him. But it is not all mental. You have to know what to do also. Forcing the overshoot on a faster guy is easy. He is faster therefore he will overshoot even if you dont do mach.
In anycase, it is almost impossible to describe what to do because every situationis different. You just have to see it or try it a few times. If you see me in the MA ask to join my plane. I always give up my six in the MA. It seems to be the guaranteed way to get the bad guy to engage