A few questions about riding the edge...

[Vudak]

Hey all,

Tonight I went to the DA with a good stick.  We were flying Spit9's, and, more often than not, we'd get into a position where neither of us had the clear cut advantage.  We weren't going around in a textbook Lufberry, but we were, at times, circling with a series of high and low yoyos, each trying to cut into the others turn/evade the manuevering.

This isn't all we did, as one or the other would eventually initiate a rolling scissors to try and grab an angle, but this was a major factor in the duels.

The fights generally lasted a very long time for DA duels as each of us tried to carve out some sort of advantage.

There's the situation.  Now here comes my question:

I would find that when I was experiencing stall buffeting, we'd stay more or less even until one of us reversed and initiated a rolling scissors.

However, the few times I tried easing back on the stick a bit, putting myself slightly into lag, but also having the stall horn, but not buzzer going, I'd find that, eventually, I'd get into a position where I could "go for broke" and move into the stall buffeting to try and go for a shot.

Now, since the duels all lasted so long, we didn't really fly that many of them, and I did not get the chance to really expand on this to see what the real deal is.

So in short, is it preferable in terms of turn radius and rate to go for an all out stall-buffeting, riding right at the very edge before stall turn?  Or is that actually counter-productive, and should the edge I be shooting for be the one right before the buffeting actually occurs?

[Latrobe]

From all my experience its not a good idea to "ride right at the very edge before stall turn". Normally (what I do) if you're coming to the edge of stall, and you see that the enemy is coming close to it too, is to let up on the turn a little. Let them stall and there you go, easy kill. If they still have E left then the best thing to do is low yo-yo to get speed back up, and let up on your turn a little so you can keep that little bit of E longer. It basiclly is all about Energy managment.

I'm not really an expert on these kind of things (yet  ) but these things usually work best for me and I haven't changed since. Best to read what a trainer posts when they get to this thread.

[Vudak]

The thing is, neither one of us were going to stall in this Lufberry-esque manuever...  We both were able to skirt that unpleasantry

I'm just wondering if it does in fact make sense to not have your plane be shaking all around stall buffeting?  It seems logical, but I was wondering what others' thoughts were.

[Latrobe]

And the survey SAYS!!..........

[B@tfinkV]

heres a film i found that definitely shows a duel 'on the edge'

http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/PhuMnChu.ahf

i got beat more than not vs this guy, he was a very good stick. i thought this might help because, had i not squelched my stall horn, it would have been going off more than 75% of the fight.

great fun.

i rekon, riding the edge to its true potential is going to win a fight for you over E management, in these turn n burn style planes.  but, and here is the kicker, we are both flying very smooth and gentle between the moments of riding the edge. so i think the key is timing, and to do a bit of both methods where applicable.

S!

[Fianna]

I'd say buffeting is better. I might be wrong, but right now that's what I think.



A couple other tips...


If you've just about got him in your sights, but you need to pull just a little more lead to put rounds on him, give full rudder into your turn, and aileron away from your turn. This should slide your nose and give those extra few degrees that you need.

Also, in the toilet bowl (luftberry), try to start nosing up a little while turning. This will put you in a stall, but it allows you to cut across his turn on the way back down. It may take a few times going around the circle and doing this, but my experience has been that the person that does this will graduallly gain angles and win.

It doesn't have to be an either/or situation with regards to e-management and riding the stall. The last part (about nosing up to cut across his turn) incorporates both styles.







I could be wrong, though.

[Ghosth]

IMO planes fly's smoother if I can just keep it out of the buffet. Smoother = less drag, and eventually better E.

Also while I'm not a killer duelest I do have one thing you might try.
Instead of sticking to a strickly flat circle. Think more like a racetrack pattern, you know the old dirt tracks that were banked up on the ends. Or take a look at a skateboard. Flat in the center, lengthened oval in design, with the ends bent up.
Fly the outside of the skateboard.

Starts by just bringing the nose up just a bit in the tightest part of your turn.
Then as you get into the buffet, go nose down (with a bit of tail slide perhaps)
Ease your turn up as your sliding down, building speed, then bring it up and do it again. Harder to describe than do, but when it works right you'll slowly start gaining altittude while hopefully not losing angles. Idea is to eventually get enough for a split S, or a hard nose down turn with a tail slide to get nose to nose with him.

The other advantage is that as your building E, he' sees this as a chance to gain angles. So he's going to be bringing it all out trying to get a shot. As you enter that last turn he's cranking like crazy trying to follow you up without the E to do it. Since he burned his on angles. One way or another you have got a real chance to hurt him.  If he doesn't stall or you miss the shot, just dive for the deck building speed as he's recovering. Reverse back high, and he should be there below you all laid out for the kill

[Hazard69]

The stall horn indicates that you are approaching stall, the buffeting indicates that you have stalled. A lot of players associate the word stall with "dropping out of the sky". Thats usually due to a spin, where one wing has stalled and the other hasn't. Maneuvering during a stall is usually what causes the spin.

Also note that stalling has NOTHING to do with airspeed. A lot of pilots believe that it does cause they have to deal with Vs (stalling SPEED). But the stall actually occurs due to a high Angle Of Attack (which u usually generate whilst flying at low speeds, hence the stalling speed limit). But a stall can happen at any speed when you exceed the angle of attack (usually over 16 degrees). Also note that angle of attack is not your aircraft's pitch angle.

Now in your situation, when you hear the buzzer, its the aircraft's way of warning you that you are APPROACHING stall. When the stall actually commences airflow over the wing separates resulting in a loss of lift. The turbulence this causes, is whats felt as buffet. Since its the lift generated by the wings that's turning you, when the buffet starts, you lost some lift and so will turn slower. When you ease off on the stick, you reduce the AoA and allow the airflow to re-attach, improving your wings lifting capacity and hence you turn rate.

CLEAR?

[BaldEagl]

I think it all depends on your and your opponents plane(s) and energy state(s).  

In Spits, as you were, riding the buffet is probably best if that's what your opponent is doing.  Many times in these fights the guy who can walk the stall tightrope the closest will win.  As mentioned above, lifting through part of the turn usually helps gain angles.

In other planes I find relaxing the stick gets me around faster and gets me on their six sooner.  I had exactly this situation in a Yak the other night (I think it was against a 109K-4 but I'm not sure).  As soon as I relaxed the stick a little I was gaining position.

Also remember that relaxing the stick gives you an E advantage (even if slight) that you may be able to use to disengage and re-merge or use a verticle manouver that your opponent can't follow.

If one ways not working for you try the other.  Just be ready to switch back if you need to.

[evenhaim]

Originally posted by Fianna
I'd say buffeting is better. I might be wrong, but right now that's what I think.



A couple other tips...


If you've just about got him in your sights, but you need to pull just a little more lead to put rounds on him, give full rudder into your turn, and aileron away from your turn. This should slide your nose and give those extra few degrees that you need.

Also, in the toilet bowl (luftberry), try to start nosing up a little while turning. This will put you in a stall, but it allows you to cut across his turn on the way back down. It may take a few times going around the circle and doing this, but my experience has been that the person that does this will graduallly gain angles and win.

It doesn't have to be an either/or situation with regards to e-management and riding the stall. The last part (about nosing up to cut across his turn) incorporates both styles.







I could be wrong, though.

I agree fianna, i had some great fights with domin back in march and april where the fights where 5+ minutes long we were both in spit 8's and we were both riding the buffet quite litterally helicopters at some points in the fights.  i remember the fights ending in 1 or the other dieng, but a few of the fights were just who hit the ground first... those are some of my most cherished ah2 memories;)

[Vudak]

Ah, I see you too have run into Phu, Bat very fun indeed

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

[Vudak]

Originally posted by Hazard69
The stall horn indicates that you are approaching stall, the buffeting indicates that you have stalled. A lot of players associate the word stall with "dropping out of the sky". Thats usually due to a spin, where one wing has stalled and the other hasn't. Maneuvering during a stall is usually what causes the spin.

Also note that stalling has NOTHING to do with airspeed. A lot of pilots believe that it does cause they have to deal with Vs (stalling SPEED). But the stall actually occurs due to a high Angle Of Attack (which u usually generate whilst flying at low speeds, hence the stalling speed limit). But a stall can happen at any speed when you exceed the angle of attack (usually over 16 degrees). Also note that angle of attack is not your aircraft's pitch angle.

Now in your situation, when you hear the buzzer, its the aircraft's way of warning you that you are APPROACHING stall. When the stall actually commences airflow over the wing separates resulting in a loss of lift. The turbulence this causes, is whats felt as buffet. Since its the lift generated by the wings that's turning you, when the buffet starts, you lost some lift and so will turn slower. When you ease off on the stick, you reduce the AoA and allow the airflow to re-attach, improving your wings lifting capacity and hence you turn rate.

CLEAR?

If a buffet means you're actually stalling though - and if the stallhorn blasts while you're buffeting - how come you can still climb, turn, tighten, whatever while the buffeting is going on?

[SIK1]

The whole wing doesn't stall at once, it is progresive. I just can't remember if it's from tip to root or root to tip. The buffet is the turbulant air moving over the wing, and turbulant air is bad for aerodynamics.

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by SIK1
The whole wing doesn't stall at once, it is progresive. I just can't remember if it's from tip to root or root to tip. The buffet is the turbulant air moving over the wing, and turbulant air is bad for aerodynamics.

I think it's root to tip IIRC.

[SIK1]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
I think it's root to tip IIRC.

I do as well. That way you still have aileron control. If it was tip to root you would lose aileron authority early in the stall.