Late War Torpedo Fix

[EagleDNY]

Instead of hijacking the other threads with this simple idea, I'll drop it here.  

Anyone who has tried torpedo attacks against the CV groups in this game has probably noticed by now that such attacks are pretty much futile.  Your chance of getting a torpedo hit on a ship moving 30 knots with a torpedo that moves 33 knots is laughably small.  A few daring individuals have worked out some head on tactics that occasionally work, but the overwhelming majority of aerial torpedo attacks fail.

PT boat torpedo attacks are also pretty much worthless unless your boat happens to spawn right next to an enemy CV.  PT drivers get to watch as their boat actually outruns the torpedoes they launch (frankly, I've done more damage to the CV with the 40mm gun than I've ever done with the torpedoes).

The simple fix for this problem is to bring the torpedoes up to late-war standards.  Both the allies and the axis had hi-speed, long range torpedoes deployed widely by 1945, and these are the torpedoes that we should be using in the arenas.

Some examples:
US: 21" Mk.17 (1944/45) - Range 16,000 yds @ 50 knots
US: 22" Mk.13 (1945 model) - Range 6,300 yds @ 33 knots, and able to be dropped from up to 2,400 feet @ 410 knots
Axis: 17.7" F5W (German) / Fiume (Italian) - Range 3,000 yds @ 40 knots
Axis: 45cm Type 91 mod 3 (Japan) - Range 2,000 yds @ 43 knots
Axis: 45cm Type 4 Mk. II (Japan) - Range 1,500 yds @ 43 knots, and strengthened to allow a launch speed of up to 400 knots
Britain: 18" Mk.XVII - Range 2,300 yds @ 40 knots
Britain: 21": Mk.VIII - Range 5,000 yds @ 45.5 knots

Some late war torp models like the US Mk.13 and the Japanese Type 4 had drag rings, tail shrouds and fin stabilization that let them be dropped at high speed and relatively high altitude as well.  

We'll never get 100% realism in AH because of the myriad programming issues involved, but we could get a whole lot closer and make torpedo attacks a much more interesting proposition by the following:

1.  Give the PT Boats the US Mk.17 torpedo.
2.  Give the B5N (Kate) and Ki-67 the Japanese Type 4 torp, and adjust the launch parameters to allow for high speed launch.
3.  Adjust the Mk.13 Torps on the TBMs to allow for high speed launch.
4.  Give the Ju-88s the F5W (longer range) torpedo.

Most of these changes can be accomplished by just changing parameters in the code, and thus should be pretty simple mods which would go a long way towards making torpedo attacks a more realistic threat in the game.

EagleDNY
$.02

[Lusche]

Just for your interest, our current PT torpedoes travel at approx. 43-45 knots

EDIT: Disregard. Me mucho dumb.

[Tiger]

I like this idea.  Running torpedoes now is an exercise in futility.

[EagleDNY]

Originally posted by Lusche
Just for your interest, our current PT torpedoes travel at approx. 43-45 knots

I checked this offline, and my PT torp speed was 39 mph (33 knots) - it seemed to agree exactly with this thread:


Torpedo Attack (How To)

This also corresponds with the speed of the Mk.13 torp used on most Elco PT Boats.

[Lusche]

Originally posted by EagleDNY
I checked this offline, and my PT torp speed was 39 mph (33 knots) - it seemed to agree exactly with this thread:


Torpedo Attack (How To)

This also corresponds with the speed of the Mk.13 torp used on most Elco PT Boats.

You are right. A operation error with the film viewer resulted in computing torp speed with wrong distance data.

My fault.

Sorry for wasting time

[VooWho]

I like this idea. The torps in this game did seem a little slow.

[Denholm]

Now if the carriers slow down and the torps speed up, might be easier to hit the carrier from a side shot. However then everyone will be complaining that the weapons against carriers advanced while the carrier defense (speed) degraded.

[sparow]

Hi chaps,

Very smart idea EagleDNY. Like all brilliant ideas, very simple and very effective. My total support on this.

Congrats,

P.S.: this does not mean that the TG groups shouldn't evolve, or subs wouldn't be implemented, IMHO.

[Spikes]

When in doubt...call in the Lanstuka

[Rolex]

I'm sorry, EagleDNY, but I don't think torpedo attacks are as futile as you think they are. We held a clinic last week in the Training Arena to illustrate a technique with a high rate of success. Here are some links:

Clinic Announcement

Results Link

Method Link

[Latrobe]

What do you mean torp attacks are futile? I've sunk atleast 5 carriers after large task group fight by launching 300 some torpedoes at their cv.

[EagleDNY]

Originally posted by Rolex
I'm sorry, EagleDNY, but I don't think torpedo attacks are as futile as you think they are. We held a clinic last week in the Training Arena to illustrate a technique with a high rate of success.

I looked at your results, and I agree that your training method and calculations are dead on for the current torpedo set.  Your films from the training arena show that it is possible to score a hit on a CV group moving in a straight line.    

Unfortunately, the combat conditions in the MA aren't quite as easy to calculate.  The CV might take evasive action, or the 5" gunners might object to you lining up on their beam and then turning into their group with such mathematical precision.  

In the face of defending fighters and 5" ack gunners, I'd like to be able to dive in at a higher speed, level out, and then cut the torps loose as close as I can to make the CVs evasive maneuvers less effective.  When late war torps could be dropped at 400 knots and from altitudes as high as 5,000 feet successfully, we make a player in a B5N or Ki-67 chop the throttles to get under 200 knots?  As it is now, we've got 1945 defensive fighters on a CV (F4U4 anyone?), and 1942 torpedo launching capability on the bombers.

PT torpedo attacks are just as bad - by the time you get into torpedo range, you are fodder for the 5" gunners on the CV.  Updating to the Mk.17 on the PTs would give them a chance to get into torpedo range and at least make the CV driver a bit nervous.  As it is now, all I have to do when driving a CV is just turn away from the PTs and run - they might catch me, but their torps certainly wont.  

Just from a fun & playability standpoint - some minor adjustments to the torpedo system would go a long way towards encouraging more people to try torpedo attacks.  I can only hope that if we see more torpedo bombing, we'll see less of the lanc-stuka.  

EagleDNY
$.02

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

The problem is not the torps.

Also take into account more shiping was sunk to bombs or rockets than any torps.


Torps are a ww1 invention, once you get a full fleet's worth of guns pointed at the attackers, the run is toast.

Didnt american torp bombers suffer HUGE looses in the carrier battle's with japan?
Its not the planes, its not the ships, its not the torps.

In ww1 ships didnt have half the defensive armament as they did in ww2.
You start spitting huge amounts of lead and flak out into the air, and your enemy is left with little to do but drop, and then die later, or die far before they ever got the chance to drop.


The better thing to do was fly over the fleet, drop the nose into a stright dive, release and pull up and fly away.
Or come in at high alt and a high angle and fire a full salvo of rockets.


*BUT*


Because this IS a game, it would be nice to see the torps speed made a bit quicker, while the fleet is a bit slower.

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
Didnt american torp bombers suffer HUGE looses in the carrier battle's with japan?

Early...yes.  Bad tactics and obsolescent planes (the Devastator vice the Avenger) coupled with fuzes that didn't pop on the torps themselves.  

Later on, torpedo runs were much more effective as the tactics, torpedoes, and Avenger hit their stride.

Regardless, torpedo attacks were not point and click weapons in the war, and shouldn't be considered that in AH either.  There was a considerable amount of research invested in developing the geometry used in WWII for employing torpedoes.  The same should be expected in the game, although the trainers have obviously cracked the code, as posted above.

[EagleDNY]

Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
The problem is not the torps.

Also take into account more shiping was sunk to bombs or rockets than any torps.

Torps are a ww1 invention, once you get a full fleet's worth of guns pointed at the attackers, the run is toast.

Didnt american torp bombers suffer HUGE looses in the carrier battle's with japan?  Its not the planes, its not the ships, its not the torps.

In ww1 ships didnt have half the defensive armament as they did in ww2.
You start spitting huge amounts of lead and flak out into the air, and your enemy is left with little to do but drop, and then die later, or die far before they ever got the chance to drop.
 

I'd like to see the tonnage figures on bombs/rockets vs torpedoes for WW2.  I don't think it is as one-sided as you think given the vastly increased effectiveness of submarines.  Given that both the German U-Boats in the Atlantic, and the US Subs in the Pacific both slaughtered merchant shipping at a horrific rate for years, I'd bet the torpedo is up pretty close to the bomb/rocket in total tonnage.

Take a look at the USN damage report list for the war -
USN WW2 Damage Report List
an awful lot of US Navy ships are listed as damaged or lost by torpedoes.

Also realize that WW2 torpedo development made the 1945 torpedoes a lot more dangerous than their WW1-era predecessors.  By the end of the war you had fast, long range torpedoes, you had acoustic homing torpedoes, and you even have the first wire-guided torpedoes.  

EagleDNY
$.02