Author Topic: Does Your Soul Weigh 21 Grams?  (Read 889 times)

Offline Halo

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Does Your Soul Weigh 21 Grams?
« on: August 21, 2007, 05:58:24 PM »
A recent movie, 21 Grams, takes its title from a theory around 1900 that the human soul weighs 21 grams.  Some guy supposedly weighed bodies before and after death to reach that conclusion.  

Obviously the theory didn't catch on; e.g., did you ever hear of it previously?

I mentioned this as an interesting farout sermon possibility to a preacher friend, but he said that was new to him and immediately dissed the idea with several Biblical quotations.  

I was present when my Mother and my Father-in-Law died several years apart, and was impressed with the departure of life (i.e., spirit, soul, animus, energy) and how their corpses literally were just shells of what they were, temporary Earthly vehicles for their life force.  

Instead of opening another discussion about life and death and souls, let's confine this one to a more secular topic: can everything be weighed and measured, including all energy, light, air, heat, anything you can think of?  

Conversely, is there anything we can perceive or imagine that cannot be weighed and measured in some form, however fine, e.g., trillionth of a gram and smaller?  

And if you simply must foray into Lala Land, okay, share some quantification vibes about the life force, spirit, animus, soul.
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Offline Bodhi

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Does Your Soul Weigh 21 Grams?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2007, 06:03:10 PM »
I have heard of this before.  Not the exact weight, just the difference in before and after death weights...

Kind of cool.
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Offline AKIron

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Does Your Soul Weigh 21 Grams?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2007, 06:04:30 PM »
Well, I do believe that everything within our physical universe can be measured, both matter and energy which probably are the same. But, measurement can never truly be accurate in a universe that changes constantly with time.
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Offline Dichotomy

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Does Your Soul Weigh 21 Grams?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2007, 06:10:19 PM »
Which brings up an interesting question.  Does energy have weight or mass?
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Offline moot

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Does Your Soul Weigh 21 Grams?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2007, 06:28:31 PM »
Last I heard, we're pretty sure the laws of physics are constant.  I've recently read some pretty dry articles about the speed of light possibly varying, but as far as I could tell it's nothing dramatic in our scale of time.

The most precise weight measurements I've heard of are down at molecular level, depending on the applications (e.g. reliably weighing the difference between individual cells).
Mass can be infered from a number of clues, such as light lensing in astrophysics, or the wobble of a rotating body out in space, etc.

Lala land speculation: I find the everyday routines of homo sapiens a bit too primitive.  If there's something out of this world (universe, perceived dimensions), it would make consciousness make a lot more sense.  I just can't buy that something as "evolved" as a soul would be limited in foundation to sensory inputs and their associated basic algorithms (yearning for physical safety, fight or flight instincts, freudian mechanics, jungian archetypes, etc) as hardwired and nothing more.
An idea I've read is that dark energy is only the effect of an influence from another dimension... Could consciousness, if it is in fact anything special, come from there?
I just can't get over the possibilities and immensity of the universe, math, philosophy, etc, not being appreciated by such a large proportion of the species.

Photons have no mass.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Does Your Soul Weigh 21 Grams?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2007, 06:39:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dichotomy
Which brings up an interesting question.  Does energy have weight or mass?


Energy = Mass * Speed of Light * Speed of Light

The answer to your question?  They are equivalent.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Does Your Soul Weigh 21 Grams?
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2007, 06:44:43 PM »
Quote
In 1907 a Massachusetts physician named Duncan MacDougall tried to find out by weighing six dying patients before and after their death. He reported in the medical journal American Medicine that there was a 21-gram difference. Even though his measurements were crude and varying, and no one has been able to replicate his findings, it has nonetheless grown to urban legendary status as the weight of the soul.  


 http://64.233.169.104/u/SkepticsSociety?q=cache:4enrnOYWCBoJ:www.skeptic.com/reading_room/debates/afterlife.html+21+grams&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&ie=UTF-8
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Offline AKIron

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Does Your Soul Weigh 21 Grams?
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2007, 08:50:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by moot
Photons have no mass.


Much debated.


If photons do have mass then it has all of it that there is to be had.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2007, 08:54:49 PM by AKIron »
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Offline Vulcan

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Does Your Soul Weigh 21 Grams?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2007, 09:16:20 PM »
If photons have no mass then how do photon torpedoes work?

Offline Chairboy

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Does Your Soul Weigh 21 Grams?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2007, 09:44:47 PM »
1. If something cannot be measured in some fashion, how can we know it's there?

2. A photon torpedo is a device that detonates, and the explosion is, I dunno, fully converted into pure photons.  Matter+Antimatter explosions would be pure photons, so I guess that's as good a retcon as any.
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Offline Thrawn

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Does Your Soul Weigh 21 Grams?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2007, 01:31:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by moot
I've recently read some pretty dry articles about the speed of light possibly varying, but as far as I could tell it's nothing dramatic in our scale of time.

They have gotten light to go so slow it has stopped.

http://www.seas.harvard.edu/haulab/press/HauPress_02.htm

Offline Flatbar

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Re: Does Your Soul Weigh 21 Grams?
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2007, 03:04:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Halo
A recent movie, 21 Grams, takes its title from a theory around 1900 that the human soul weighs 21 grams.  Some guy supposedly weighed bodies before and after death to reach that conclusion.  

 


This is kinda funny in a morbid way, since we lose both bladder and sphincter control at death you will weigh less within a minute after you die.

Offline AquaShrimp

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Does Your Soul Weigh 21 Grams?
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2007, 03:10:16 AM »
Photons have energy, but not mass.

Yeah, people crap and pee when they die.  Thats probably the 21 gram difference.

Offline SkyRock

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Does Your Soul Weigh 21 Grams?
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2007, 07:50:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dichotomy
Which brings up an interesting question.  Does energy have weight or mass?

lolz  When was the last time you had a physics class?  :aok

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Offline moot

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Does Your Soul Weigh 21 Grams?
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2007, 08:32:35 AM »
I can't wrap my head around McGroin's proof, but then I haven't slept in 2 days straight.

Thrawn, I remember that one.  I meant C the speed of light in a vacuum, the constant.  There was a bit about the cosmological constant that went hand in hand with the idea which made it more intuitive, but I can't recall it at the moment.

Btw, the German report of the speed of light being broken is pretty suspect.  The photons didn't travel the distance in the experiment, only tunneled through it.  Some similar experiments had photons exiting the tunnel mass before they'd completely entered it.  I remember there was a good explanation for this not being extraordinary.
The German report, though, apparently wasn't measured right, or something (forgot the specifics of it too).
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